[slim] Rebuffering is ruining the Squeezebox experience

[benthos]

I remember a time when my Squeezebox never rebuffered. That's right, it
never rebuffered. But starting several months ago, with one of the more
recent updates, it became an issue. Music would pause inexplicably.
The dreaded rebuffering error message would appear.

Today I run version 7.3.3 on a Netgear Duo Readynas unit, streaming via
ethernet cable to an SB3. And yet, it rebuffers. Of course I plan to
go back to using an old version of the Squeezecenter software, it's the
only thing that ever worked in the past. But it's annoying. I've
thought about purchasing a Transporter, but who in their right mind
would spend thousands of dollars on something that is likely to give the
same rebuffering errors? I'd rather go back to cds than endure that.

Logitech needs to give some more serious consideration to this problem.
It's not like it's a new problem. It's starting to ruin their
product.

Chris


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[andyg]

Before you give up, try and see if running SC on a server that is faster
than your cell phone fixes the problem. :) I kid, but only slightly,
about how slow the non-x86 ReadyNAS boxes are.


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[Mnyb]

Ok try to contact support, have u suffered for months without
considering support !?
http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/support/contact-support.html

sometimes upgrades goes south, consider a completely clean install of
SC .
That happens more often than one would like, sometimes you have to do
clean installs instead of upgrades.
but here with support about that.
Or maybe a cleaning of the cache folder for SC .
Search for CleanSqueezeCenter_DB on the ready nas forum.
But again talk to support.

Is there a pattern to this any certain file type that is rebuffering ?
aac, wma ?


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[benthos]

Mnyb;441532 Wrote:
> Ok try to contact support, have u suffered for months without
> considering support !?
> http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/support/contact-support.html

I've had the impression from searching these forums these many months
that lots of people experience the same problem. Evidently the fix is
to not use the latest software.

>
> sometimes upgrades goes south, consider a completely clean install of
> SC .
> That happens more often than one would like, sometimes you have to do
> clean installs instead of upgrades.
> but here with support about that.
> Or maybe a cleaning of the cache folder for SC .
> Search for CleanSqueezeCenter_DB on the ready nas forum.
>

Thanks for the advice, but I've done that many times. It doesn't help
with rebuffering.

> Is there a pattern to this any certain file type that is rebuffering ?
> aac, wma ?

I play FLAC files. FLAC is certainly larger than mp3, etc. Maybe it's
just that Squeezecenter has more trouble streaming FLAC than other
formats.


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[Phil Leigh]

benthos;441644 Wrote:
> I've had the impression from searching these forums these many months
> that lots of people experience the same problem. Evidently the fix is
> to not use the latest software.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the advice, but I've done that many times. It doesn't help
> with rebuffering.
>
>
>
> I play FLAC files. FLAC is certainly larger than mp3, etc. Maybe it's
> just that Squeezecenter has more trouble streaming FLAC than other
> formats.

It's more likely that the problem lies with your NAS.
Do you have a laptop or something you could try as an alternative
server?


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Outdoors: Boom
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[86atc250r]

Chances are extremely high that it is a problem with your network or
your internet connection if you are streaming in a music service or
internet radio --- not running the latest version of code.

If it were a fundamental software problem related to streaming, it
would be a widespread, catastrophic issue for everyone & the forum would
be flooded with angry users.

Have you done any network bandwidth testing or anything else in attempt
to isolate the issue? If it's your network, internet connection, or the
station you're listening to, you have a couple options.

Fix your network. If the device you're streaming to is wireless, wire
it and see if the situation improves. If it does, you're dealing with
a wireless issue. FLAC streams at a MUCH higher bitrate than lossy
formats like MP3. If you are having trouble with FLAC, chances are
*HIGHLY* likely you have a network problem. FLAC will exacerbate any
underlying network problems - however, even FLAC should stream fine if
you don't have network issues.

Switch internet providers or get a faster service. Just because you
can successfully browse the web on your internet or network connection,
doesn't mean you=re not dropping packets, experiencing high latency, or
running at a lower rate than the audio you're trying to stream.

If all else fails, you can increase the buffer for internet radio
stations.

Personally, I've found that the Squeezebox line streams very reliably.
I have about seven devices at my house and about three at my parent's
house, all wireless. Both systems always running the latest release
software.

The devices never rebuffer, even when streaming from the internet for
hours at a time, with the occasional exception of one of my SB3 devices.
The problem with that device is that it's connected in another building
via wireless bridge with a directional antenna that has to blow through
a metal building to connect back to the mothership. The signal quality
is very low (barely enough to even make a connection) and the connection
is unreliable - in reality, it's amazing the SB3 works as well as it
does under these conditions and streams well most of the time.


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[GeeJay]

I've had rebuffering issues of late as well, but have managed to fix
them. I was tempted to blame the 7.3.x upgrades, but turns out it's
been a combination of other factors.

First, I've been slowly building my FLAC collection, with new music as
well as reripping some CDs to FLAC. The rebuffering issues invariably
arose when playing FLAC tracks. Problems likely would have popped up
earlier for me had I not been playing mostly mp3s until recently.

Second, I bought a new, larger LCD TV earlier this year. The SB3 and
router that I have next to it (and was next to the old set) started
having the rebuffering problems not long after I replaced the TV. I
didn't connect the dots at first (for some reason everything worked fine
for a week or two, but maybe I wasn't playing the SB3 much during that
time...new toy and all), but I finally switched from a wireless
connection to a wired one and fixed that problem. Must have been
interference from the new set.

Third, the SBR in my billiards room developed the same problem a few
weeks later. Hooked it up to a powerline adapter (which the PC hosting
SC is now on since I discovered the issue with the TV), and that didn't
fix the problem. Replaced it with a spare SB3...still had issues.
Finally checked the throughput on the powerline adapter and realized it
was worse than a good wireless connection. Finally moved the SB3 to the
other side of the bar where it has a clear line of sight to the router
(which I'd moved from behind the TV to a shelf I built over it when
trying to fix Problem #2). Problem solved.

I guess the moral to the story is that even after months of faithful
service, something new gets entered into the mix and can screw up what
has been a reliable network. I've had other issues pop up, too...my
wife's treadmill will draw so much power it makes my powerline adapters
worthless when it comes to streaming music, new devices added to the
network has messed it up, etc.

My advice to anyone experiencing these issues is to explore EVERY
possible source of network problem before blaming the software. I have
umpteen examples of that being the case for me.


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[bpa]

With rebuffering - the first thing to do is run "Network test" and check
that your network can deliver required bandwidth @ 100% for at least 10
mins.


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[amcluesent]

I broke my install of 7.3.3 on Vista by installing Cisco Speed Meter.
This added a bucket-load of drivers in the network stack, and triggered
all manner of halts and rebuffering.


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[maggior]

Here's a bit of what my experience has been like:

I've NEVER experienced rebuffering messages in the past. I ran 7.2.1
for a long time because each time I upgraded to a new version I would
have dropouts. Always, going back to 7.2.1 would fix it.

7.3.3 has been pretty solid for me, but I've experienced the dreaded
rebuffering situation. Perhaps the dropouts that would occur before
were actually rebuffering? Perhaps it's progress now that it rebuffers
rather than dropping the entire stream on the floor waiting for me to
hit "play" to resume? I don't know...it's possible.

It seems to coincidental that these rebuffering messages are popping up
now that I've moved to 7.3.3. They are annoying, but infrequent enough
that I've decided to stick it out. I like the stable player sync
feature too much to let go of it :-).

It seems to on particular days that the rebuffering will be a real
issue for me. When this happens again, I'll have to take the "run the
network test" advice. Perhaps something is interfering on only certain
days. I've already been through moving the microwave :-) (a much
simpler solution than running CAT-5 through my finished basement).

All of my SBs are wireless and my entire library is FLAC. 99% of the
time I have no problem, but man is it annoying when there is an issue!


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 3 Booms, 1 duet, 1 receiver. SuSE 11.0 Server running
SqueezeCenter 7.3.3, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 27,462 songs, 2,276 albums, 434 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
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[86atc250r]

I've been streaming all day on 7.3.3 - Rhapsody no less, in my shop,
across the wireless bridge where it is barely connected at all (rain can
drop the connection completely - luckily today is very nice).
Streaming for around nine hours now as I work - rebuffer free...

Check your network :)

Kidding aside, you can go into settings and under your selected player,
go to "Now Playing" and set the display to "Show Buffer Fullness".

FWIW, in streaming Rhapsody here at the shop (on the bad connection) it
buffers about 131 seconds within a few seconds of starting the song and
stays there (within a couple tenths of a second) until it counts down to
the end of the song.

Streaming Radio Paradise (internet radio) it buffers a couple seconds
and stays there (again fluctuating a couple tenths).

Streaming local FLAC files, it will actually buffer 100% of the next
song before it even starts. It stays solid at 100% until it counts
down to the next. In the song that I watched closely, I had about 39
seconds buffer with a FLAC file. With 39 seconds you can take quite a
disruption before you should ever see a rebuffer message.

Have a look and it may help you determine the cause of your issues.
You may be able to determine if your network is struggling all the time,
or just at certain times, maybe helping you isolate the source of the
trouble as well.


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[bpa]

>
> I broke my install of 7.3.3 on Vista by installing Cisco Speed Meter.
> This added a bucket-load of drivers in the network stack, and triggered
> all manner of halts and rebuffering.
>

If you took this action because I suggested do a "Network Test" - I was
referring to the Network Test that is part of SC and available in SB and
SBC menus or under "Network & Server Health" on SC's Help page..


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[benthos]

maggior;441720 Wrote:
>
> I've NEVER experienced rebuffering messages in the past. I ran 7.2.1
> for a long time because each time I upgraded to a new version I would
> have dropouts. Always, going back to 7.2.1 would fix it.

That's been my experience exactly.

>
> 7.3.3 has been pretty solid for me, but I've experienced the dreaded
> rebuffering situation. .... It seems too coincidental that these
> rebuffering messages are popping up now that I've moved to 7.3.3. They
> are annoying, but infrequent enough that I've decided to stick it out.

I found that going from wireless to wired improved things somewhat
(less rebuffering), which is why I now keep my SB3 tethered. I found
that if I turned the microwave on (or sent negative vibes to anyone,
etc.), wireless mode would be interrupted. Another advantage of the
wired method is that the unit is much more responsive.

Following some of the previous posts, I tried the network test. It
showed a continuous 100% at the highest transfer rate. I do find that
7.3.3 is better about rebuffering than the previous version (though that
might be attributable to the ethernet connection). It doesn't happen
very often, but when it does, it's a pain in the @ss. Resetting the
unit doesn't fix it. I'd rather not reinstall the system software for
my Readynas if I can avoid it - especially when the benefits of doing so
are uncertain. I plan at this point to remove the few resident programs
that are running on the NAS and see if that helps. If the rebuffering
continues, I'll be reinstalling 7.2.1 once again.

I'd be interested to know what changed about the Squeezecenter software
after 7.2.1 to make rebuffering such a problem for so many people.

Chris


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[ModelCitizen]

benthos;441879 Wrote:
> I'd be interested to know what changed about the Squeezecenter software
> after 7.2.1 to make rebuffering such a problem for so many people.
There's only one other person in this thread who has experienced
anything like the same problem problem (maggior). You've got to wonder
if he is running the app of something as feeble as a Netgear Duo
Readynas too.

MC


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ModelCitizen

On average people have fewer than two feet.

Last.fm/user/ModelCitizen
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[Jeff52]

I had the same rebuffering issues with 7.3.3 and wireless. No problems
using 7.2.1. At least in my case something happened to the wireless
connection causing rebuffering issues between 7.2.1 and 7.3.3.

I then decided to try a homeplug ethernet connection and now 7.3.3
works flawlessly except when my wife plugs the vacuum cleaner into the
same electrical circuit as the SB3 :-)which creates enough noise to
disrupt the connection--but that is to be expected.


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[andynormancx]

ModelCitizen;441884 Wrote:
> There's only one other person in this thread who has experienced
> anything like the same problem problem (maggior). You've got to wonder
> if he is running the app on something as feeble as a Netgear Duo
> Readynas too.
>
I do wish people would take a little more care to read the rest of the
thread some times.

He has already said he also tried running on a 2.2GHz machine and had
the same problems. So whatever the issue is here it probably isn't just
down to his NAS.


--
andynormancx

Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ?
I SAID ALL OF THEM !
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[GeeJay]

Well, instant karma got me....

After my bold claims that my rebuffering problems were fixed, they've
started again. Back to square one....

BTW, I'm running SC on an XP machine with plenty of RAM and a
reasonably fast chip...certainly enough horsepower to do the job. I'm
now thinking the issue may be the connection between my router and the
host PC. They're not in the same room, and the layout of the house is
such that the only way I can get a reliable connection is through
powerline adapters. That connection may not be "reliable" enough for
streaming FLAC, however.


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[maggior]

ModelCitizen;441884 Wrote:
> There's only one other person in this thread who has experienced
> anything like the same problem problem (maggior). You've got to wonder
> if he is running the app on something as feeble as a Netgear Duo
> Readynas too.
>
> MC

I'm running open SuSE Linux 11.0 on a P4 1.2GHz machine with 1GB of
RAM. The only other servers that are running are SAMBA and aother
standard Linux daemons, and MusicIP. Horsepower on the host isn't an
issue. The server is hardwired to my Linksys WRT-54GS router running
DD-WRT.

It doesn't happen that often, but it's happened enough that I can sense
that something is different. And as somebody else here has mentioned,
when it does happen, it is a pain in the @ss.


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 3 Booms, 1 duet, 1 receiver. SuSE 11.0 Server running
SqueezeCenter 7.3.3, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 27,462 songs, 2,276 albums, 434 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
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[andynormancx]

maggior;442035 Wrote:
>
> It doesn't happen that often, but it's happened enough that I can sense
> that something is different. And as somebody else here has mentioned,
> when it does happen, it is a pain in the @ss.
It does sound annoying. Have to tried turning on some logging so that
you can capture what is going wrong ?


--
andynormancx

Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ?
I SAID ALL OF THEM !
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[maggior]

It's infrequent enough that I can tolerate it for now. The intermittent
nature of the issue makes it difficult to troubleshoot.

I checked out the network test feature on the controller which was
mentioned earlier in this thread. I've run the test while things are
working to get a baseline. The next time it acts up, I'll run it again
and see if there is any difference. From there perhaps I'll capture
some logs.

At this point my free time is at a premium, so I'd rather spend it
enjoying music rather than troubleshooting my network/music system. I
was lucky to carve out time to upgrade to 7.3.3.


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 3 Booms, 1 duet, 1 receiver. SuSE 11.0 Server running
SqueezeCenter 7.3.3, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 27,462 songs, 2,276 albums, 434 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
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[jo-wie]

maggior;442035 Wrote:
> The server is hardwired to my Linksys WRT-54GS router running DD-WRT.

Have you tried to use a separate switch instead the Linksys? DD-WRT is
a nice firmware for the Linksys, but I do not know if the hardware is
the best. I've a WRT-54GS V6 with original firmware and sometimes the
unit do hang up.


--
jo-wie

SB Classic, SC 7.3.4 auf GigaByte STA/C mit VIA C7 1GHz, 1GB RAM, 250 GB
2,5" HD, Ubuntu Desktop 8.04 LTS, CD -> FLAC = dbpoweramp

last.fm/user/jo-wie
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[egd]

Let me add to the fray and say that I too had never experienced a
rebuffering until my recent update to 7.3.3. I'm wired and it's
intermittent, but it's there and it's damned annoying when it surfaces.


--
egd

Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable,
monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly
unrealistic...

Integrating MusicIP with SqueezeCenter...'*here's how*'
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[Jakeman]

Same here. The only time I have had rebuffering issues has been with
7.3.3. There has been no changes to my computer, HP using Vista, my
DLink wireless network or external hardware. I'd say with high
probability its a 7.3.3 issue but it also is infrequent enough that I
just put up with it.


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[benthos]

ModelCitizen;441884 Wrote:
> There's only one other person in this thread who has experienced
> anything like the same problem problem (maggior). You've got to wonder
> if he is running the app on something as feeble as a Netgear Duo
> Readynas too.
>
> MC

Forget about reading my post- I suggest that you try reading this
thread. This is not an isolated problem. You might also try searching
for the expression "rebuffering" in the forums. You'll find a lot of
posts on this subject. Obviously, you don't care about it because
you're not experiencing it. If you neither care about nor experience
this problem, I don't see why you're posting on the subject.

And frankly, if the Netgear Readynas is too "feeble" to run
Squeezecenter (as you say), then I have to wonder why Logitech (nee
Slimdevices) partnered with Readynas in the first place. Why should
this software require so much in the way of hardware resources (CPU,
etc.)?

I'm headed back to 7.2.1. Today I encountered the overbuffering issue,
as well a continuing problem with 7.3.3's inability to refresh the
playlist. I'm sick of it. Might as well stick with what works and stop
wasting time.

Chris


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[maggior]

benthos;442476 Wrote:
>
> I'm headed back to 7.2.1. Today I encountered the rebuffering issue,
> as well a continuing problem with 7.3.3's inability to refresh the
> playlist. I'm sick of it. Might as well stick with what works and stop
> wasting time.
> Chris

I hear ya. On the positive side, at least you have a stable version to
revert to.

With the versions leading up to 7.3.3, I stopped getting upset. I
didn't have time to waste debugging and collecting logs, so I just went
back to what I knew worked.


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 3 Booms, 1 duet, 1 receiver. SuSE 11.0 Server running
SqueezeCenter 7.3.3, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 27,462 songs, 2,276 albums, 434 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
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[deutscherhififan]

7.2.1 is the gold standard for me as well. My 'upgrade path' has been
7.2.1 -> 7.3 -> 7.2.1 -> 7.3.1 -> 7.2.1 -> 7.3.2 -> 7.2.1 -> 7.3.3. ->
7.2.1 -> 7.4 -> 7.2.1. Wow, quite the journey without getting anywhere.
In some versions rebuffering was more prevalent, in others less, but
sooner or later it always showed it's ugly face. After QNAP released the
new firmware for the TS109II the problem was less prominent, but even
one rebuffering per night annoys the heck out of me. From reading all
the posts related to this problem I learned that there is not
rebuffering in 7.2.1 since that 'functionality' was introduced with the
7.2.2 release.


--
deutscherhififan

Primary: QNAP TS109II > BPT CPC > Modwright Platinum Signature 'Truth'
Transporter with 6N30P DR 'Super Tubes' + EML 5U4G Mesh or Oppo BDP-83 >
Maxxed Woo Audio WA2 with TungSol 5998's, Amperez Bugleboy 6DJ7's, and
Mullard EZ80's > Audio Mirror 45W SET Monoblocks > Piega P4XL II + Piega
PSub4. AKG K701 Headphones, all Kimber cables

Secondary: Monster Signature Power Conditioner > Duet > Beresford 7520

DAC > Vista Audio i34 Integrated Tube Amp > Epos M5 Speakers + sub
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[benthos]

maggior;442567 Wrote:
> I hear ya. On the positive side, at least you have a stable version to
> revert to.
>

Tell me about it. I'm back on 7.2.1 now, and not a rebuffering error
in sight. Also, it's much more responsive and I no longer have any
refresh problems with Squeezecenter.

I hope that someone at Logitech is paying attention to this. What good
are updates that ruin your product? I really like the Squeezebox, I
want to see the product line succeed. Someday I'd like to get a
Transporter and maybe one of the upcoming touch models.. but certainly
not if their software works as it does right now. I repeat: rebuffering
is ruining the Squeezebox experience.

Chris


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[joz]

My SB3 was a dream until I updated to 7.3.2.

Before it ran like a swiss watch,after the update my rebufferring woes
began.
Nothing else changed in the network,but since I ran the upgrade it
seems my wireless router needs re-booting if I'm ever experiencing the
drop outs.

Still not sure what I gained from the udate?


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[dsdreamer]

I had stated earlier in this thread that I never saw any rebuffering
issues in 7.3.3., but that was clearly tempting fate. It happened to me
yesterday!

I was playing a FLAC-encoded album at the time and immediately switched
on the buffering monitoring diagnostic screen saver on my SB3. I
noticed that the buffer fullness bar was not able to get to 100%, but
was doing a random walk and sometimes emptying completely, thus
triggering a rebuffering pause.

I then checked what else was going on around the network, and found
that one of my sons had a Steam game downloading and was getting
excellent download speed. Sufficient speed, in fact, to choke off my
bandwidth for streaming FLACs. (I don't currently have any QoS rules in
effect on my LINKSYS WRT54GL running Tomato firmware.)

My curiosity was aroused to see what streaming bandwidth was being used
by the SB3 when playing back FLAC across my wireless network. The
attached chart shows what I could find by looking at the Tomato realtime
bandwidth monitor. Looking at the graphic you can see three tracks being
played in the space of 10 minutes.

* The gaps before the peaks are when the end of the previous track is
being played out of the SB3's buffer memory and the SB3 has not begun to
pre-buffer the next track.

* The peaks are when the next track is getting buffered as quickly as
possible.

* The steady(ish) 700kbps bandwidth is during normal track playback
when the buffer is being consumed at the same rate it is being
replenished and is close to 100% full.

Notice that network conditions were gradually improving during this 10
minute window, indicated by the peak bandwidth during the buffering of
the up-coming track. Ideally, this should be as narrow and tall as
possible meaning the buffer was refilled in a short period of time.

A vulnerability exists if the (supposedly) rapid buffering of the next
track is throttled by network congestion. Under these conditions the
weakest point is when you have emptied the previous track buffer but
can't get sufficiently ahead of the game to gain some safety margin. It
seems to me that to safely play back FLACs with an average bandwidth of
700kbps, you need some safe multiple of that bandwidth to be reliably
available (at least x2, but preferably x4 or better).

It would be better still if the SB3 would start buffering the next
track earlier (i.e., alternating between two buffers so you can fill the
next buffer while playing out the current one). That gap, followed by a
peak is what will surely cause trouble in some marginal connectivity
scenarios.


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
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[DaveWr]

Like you I have had re-buffering issues, since 7.2.1 to varying degrees.
I also fail to understand the buffering strategy for track start. It is
a probable reason many people have bandwidth problems. This peak demand
is significant, especially if it coincides with other activity. I have
measured peak rates of 6 times normal running level. I also think this
peak issue will have subsequent effects for those of us who are
transcoding for non-native formats, peak demand in processor performance
required.

Dave


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[dsdreamer]

DaveWr;443227 Wrote:
> Like you I have had re-buffering issues, since 7.2.1 to varying degrees.
> I also fail to understand the buffering strategy for track start. It is
> a probable reason many people have bandwidth problems. This peak demand
> is significant, especially if it coincides with other activity. I have
> measured peak rates of 6 times normal running level. I also think this
> peak issue will have subsequent effects for those of us who are
> transcoding for non-native formats, peak demand in processor performance
> required.
>
> Dave

To further clarify, the "peak demand" as you put it doesn't have to be
fully met for safe streaming to occur, but the faster the new track can
get fully buffered the safer it will be. By doing a bit of visual
integration, you will notice that the area under the "missing" data
throughput at the end of the old track is the same as the area under the
"fast buffering peak" at the beginning of the new track.

So, if the max throughput obtainable by the SB is 2x the average
running rate, it will take as long for the buffer to fully refill as it
takes to empty (i.e., the length of the buffer, which is about 40
seconds). If that level of throughput is fully guaranteed and not
fluctuating with time, streaming should still be reliable. However the
"window of vulnerability" will last a bit longer than one would like.

Likewise if I could only get 1.1x the average FLAC bit rate, it would
take 10x the length of the buffer in seconds to refill it. This would
probably break the system, and not allow gapless playback, even if the
1.1x throughput was as steady as a rock.

It is not quite as simple as that because there is an audio buffer as
well as a network buffer. There are still samples to be played out of
the audio buffer once the network buffer is empty.

Nevertheless, it remains my contention that splitting the network
buffer in two and using double buffering to start pre-buffering the next
track earlier would make for a more robust system.


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[maggior]

The buffering behavior that you've identified would explain rebuffering
issues around track transitions. Whenever I've noticed it, it's been in
the middle of a track. Perhaps this indicates a network issue for me
rather than an issue with the buffering scheme used for the SB. But on
the other hand, I don't know why these issues only cropped up for me
with 7.3.3.


--
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Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 3 Booms, 1 duet, 1 receiver. SuSE 11.0 Server running
SqueezeCenter 7.3.3, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 27,462 songs, 2,276 albums, 434 artists.
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[GeeJay]

Well, I've resorted to having everything transcoded to mp3 so I'm not
streaming anything bulkier than 320. My PC can probably handle the
workload better than my network has been able to, and so far this
weekend I haven't had a problem.


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[egd]

Trouble free listening session of about 4 hours last night...like I
said, it's intermittent.


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[jimwillsher]

Just adding my 2p.

I had weird problems with my SB3 yesterday, with the music fading in
and out, and pausing for a second or two then resuming. The player is in
the other room and I could hear it but couldn't see the screen. Then it
dawned on my....rebuffering. It confused me, since I've NEVER heard
rebuffering on any of my three players (all wireless), ever since
release 5.4.1, and didn't recognise the problem at first. The first time
I've ever experienced it is....7.3.3.

I'm running SC 7.3.3 on Ubuntu 9.04 x64 (headless) on a Quad Core Q9450
with 8GB RAM, so I'm pretty sure it's not down to the processor speed.
My wireless signal strength (802.11g) is around 85%-90% too, with
nothing else on the WLAN (and no other houses within 500 metres) so it's
not the wifi either.

It's only happened for a period of 20 minutes or so yesterday, never
before and (touch wood) not since. But it's a bizarre coincidence that
others are reporting it with 7.3.3, and that's my first experience too.


Jim


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[timmorris]

I have three players currently active:

SB3
SBR
Boom

I've increased the server priority to -21. As a test I've been running
random song mixes on all 3 players. SBR is connected to one access point
- strength 81. SB3 and Boom are connected to another access point signal
strengths 71 and 99 respectively.

Boom is the only player that I have a problem with. In less than 24
hours it looses connection "rebuffering failed" and shows less than 20%
signal strength in the information pane.

I've reinstalled SC and deleted settings and performed a factory reset
on the Boom.

Something is wrong.

Tim


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[Mnyb]

timmorris;443522 Wrote:
> I have three players currently active:
>
> SB3
> SBR
> Boom
>
> I've increased the server priority to -21. As a test I've been running
> random song mixes on all 3 players. SBR is connected to one access point
> - strength 81. SB3 and Boom are connected to another access point signal
> strengths 71 and 99 respectively.
>
> Boom is the only player that I have a problem with. In less than 24
> hours it looses connection "rebuffering failed" and shows less than 20%
> signal strength in the information pane.
>
> I've reinstalled SC and deleted settings and performed a factory reset
> on the Boom.
>
> Something is wrong.
>
> Tim

20% signal stregth is insufficient this is a wifi issue for your Boom
not a Squeezecenter error.


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[timmorris]

The problem appeared to have been with the boom, but it is 8 feet from
the WAP. The SB3 is about 20 feet from the same WAP, and suffers no
issues. The SBR has no issues either, I had them all running over the
weekend with the volume muted. Only the Boom lost contact, which does
lend some credence to your theory. I run an iPhone, an SBC, a desktop,
laptop and two Squeezeboxes in my house, and all worked well until
upgrading to 3.3.3

There's no issue with interference - we live on a 2.5 acre plot and all
the insulation is foil backed so RF doesn't enter or leave the building.
I do have 3WAPs but they are evenly spread along the available spectrum
and well spread through the building.

I did upgrade to 3.3.4 last night and I haven't had a recurrence of the
problem, so there does appear to be an issue with 3.3.3 and streaming
performance.

Tim


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[dsdreamer]

All,

We seem to have a number of users who are experiencing buffer
under-runs with 7.3.3, and in circumstances where wireless interference
could be ruled out.

I have experienced problems, but traced it to network issues, which I
subsequently fixed by moving to 802.11n in the 5GHz UN-II band. (I added
an Apple Airport Express for each Squeezebox in the system).

Others, however, see problems in what should be very robust wireless
networks or even in wired networks.

We know that the problem seems not to occur with "old streaming" vs.
the "new streaming" introduced after 7.2.1. But we also have evidence
that the bug will be very hard to reproduce on demand to allow decent
investigation.

Is that enough data to open a Bugzilla bug report?


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[NigelC]

I'd like to add my vote for a bug, since I have also experienced these
rebuffering problems. I have moved house recently, moved my server from
Windows to Ubuntu, and upgraded to 7.3.3 (& then to 7.3.4 to try and fix
the internet conection/DNS problem). So it has taken a bit of time to
get everything sorted out, and to identify the source of the problem.

I get regular and frequent dropouts and breaks in my music due to
rebuffering. My wifi strength varies throughout the house, but the
problems continue even when the SB is 10ft from my router/AP and the
signal strength is 90%. Having had my squeezebox system for 4 years,
now in 3 different houses, I have a good feel for the performance over
wifi, and have not had this behaviour before, unless the signal strength
dropped to about 30% or thereabouts.

I have checked the network perforamnce and everything looks good, so I
believe there is a bug.

(I have just finished the ethernet cabling in the new house, and so all
my SBs are now hardwired and the rebuffering problem has gone away)

SB2, 2 x SB3, TP, Duet - Ubuntu 9.04, SC 7.3.4 27392


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[dsdreamer]

"Streaming in 7.3.3 seems less robust than previous versions of SC"

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13092

You can vote for the bug, and add details of your own experiences with
this problem. If enough people put info there, QA should start to take
notice.


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[Mnyb]

NigelC;443809 Wrote:
>
>
> snip
>
> (I have just finished the ethernet cabling in the new house, and so all
> my SBs are now hardwired and the rebuffering problem has gone away)
>
> SB2, 2 x SB3, TP, Duet - Ubuntu 9.04, SC 7.3.4 27392

If the problem goes away when wiring the system, is not a wifi problem
anyway then ? not necessarily signal strength or quality maybe some kind
of basic router incompatibility ?
If you file your case in the bug make sure to include all your details
regarding router and type of security and it's settings WPA, WEP and
so.

If it is a problem with the SqueezeBox it might not be SqueezeCenter
maybe player firmware ? If it's still buffering when using cables
SqueezeCenter is a possible source of problem especially if it can be
shown that older versions works ok with the same computer.

Btw is the server also hardwired.

I'm reading this tread with some interest, theres seem to be a mix of
different problems in here ?


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[dsdreamer]

Mnyb;443922 Wrote:
> If the problem goes away when wiring the system, is not a wifi problem
> anyway then ? not necessarily signal strength or quality maybe some kind
> of basic router incompatibility ?
>

There is a possibility that 7.3.3 or its associated firmware is
especially fragile when it comes to network congestion, and the case for
this based on multiple users' experience is building in this forum.

Several people who have used Squeezeboxes for years are now having
issues for the first time. Even when the symptoms can be relieved by
making changes to the network, it doesn't mean that there is not a new
underlying problem. (Does Logitech use a network torture test to
evaluate the performance of their devices on a busy shared medium with
lots of packet collisions and retries? I think they should.)

It is especially troubling if multiple reports indicate that reliable
streaming over an imperfect network requires reverting to a previous
version of the product firmware or using the "old" streaming protocol.


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[timmorris]

I've added my vote. Anyone else?


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[timmorris]

I now firmly expect it to be a firmware bug, as my initial thoughts
about 7.3.4 fixing it proved wrong. I'll try 7.4 to see if that helps
and report back, but leave the testing a little longer this time.

Tim


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[Mnyb]

timmorris;443972 Wrote:
> I now firmly expect it to be a firmware bug, as my initial thoughts
> about 7.3.4 fixing it proved wrong. I'll try 7.4 to see if that helps
> and report back, but leave the testing a little longer this time.
>
> Tim

7.4 is somewhat buggy for the moment, and uses a completely new
database system, so beware . Downgrading migth prove problematic .
many pluggins will break scanning is buggy to.

Actually i have experiences with upgrades that does not work as
expected.
with every major version of SC and some of the smaller upgrades I've
had to resort to a cleaning of cache folder or a completely clean
install to make it fly again.


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[RalphO]

I do not know whether my comments help this discussion or not but I want
to post it anyway. I have a transporter in the living room and a SB3 in
the garden. They both run wireless but the SB3 gets its signal from a
wireless range extender. Normally I have no issues with either players.
However, recently I tried to synchronize the players. On the SB3 every
track started by rebuffering and it was a pain. To solve it all I did
was turn off the synchronization.


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[GeeJay]

The bug report got my vote. Until there is some indication that the
problem has been identified I'll likely continue to stream at 320. My
system worked fine this weekend once I made that change.


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[lanierb]

I'm not saying there isn't a real problem here. However, it still seems
like the vast majority of people (me, for example) have not experienced
this problem at all, so I just want to remind people that "nothing
changed in my system" is not equivalent to "nothing changed". Two
things come to mind: one is a change in wireless interference due to,
for example, neighbors' routers, new cell phone towers, a router
failing, etc. Another possibility is that the newer builds are slightly
more server intensive and those with weaker/overburdened servers are
starting to see issues.

Again, I'm not saying there isn't a problem for sure, but there seems
to be an assumption in this thread that there's something majorly wrong
with 7.3.3 and 7.3.4 so I wanted to point out that there is fairly
strong evidence against this assumption because most people (the silent
majority) seem to have no problems at all, or otherwise there would be a
deluge of complaints.


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[timmorris]

In my system the problem is limited to the Boom. I can play music for
days on the SB3 without it rebuffering connected to the same access
point. When the Boom eventually goes to "rebuffering failed" and locks
up. Then the signal strength drops from 98% to 12% on the server
information page. The SB3 maintains an average strength of 71%. I set up
a test playlist with 1600 tracks in it and it failed at the 243rd
track.

I uninstalled 7.4, deleted the cache log and prefs files from the
folder tree for both the 7.4 and 7.3.x versions of the server (they use
different folder paths), and reinstalled, and was able to repeat the
same issue.

I'll repeat the same experiment with 7.2.1 and see if it is an issue
with the Boom or the server.

I'm a "semi-professional" beta tester, since a Motorcycle accident
stopped me from working, current projects include

CalMAN ISF calibration beta since version 2.1 (software and hardware)
iPeng iPhone Squeezecentre controller application since the first
version
Radiance XD video processor since the first manufacturing batch
Content delivery application on iPhone for UK mobile phone service
provider (carrier).

I'm well versed in isolating and reproducing bugs and there does appear
to be an issue. In my case it might be the Boom in which case I'll be on
to Logitech support, but I suspect it is a firmware/software issue.

I use several other wireless devices, including streaming of video over
WiFi none of which have been affected, and as mentioned earlier in this
thread my property was built in 2002. Due to UK building regulations the
insulation is foil backed and I get NO mobile phone signal inside the
building, and my cordless and wireless devices get no signal outside. I
am fairly confident that there have been no environmental changes. Just
because you don't suffer from the issue doesn't mean it isn't there.
I'll do my best to isolate it, and when I do, I'll provide Logitech with
as much information as I'm able.

Tim


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[GeeJay]

lanierb;444584 Wrote:
>
>
> Again, I'm not saying there isn't a problem for sure, but there seems
> to be an assumption in this thread that there's something majorly wrong
> with 7.3.3 and 7.3.4 so I wanted to point out that there is fairly
> strong evidence against this assumption because most people (the silent
> majority) seem to have no problems at all, or otherwise there would be a
> deluge of complaints.

IMHO, the absence of complaints is not sufficient evidence to conclude
there is no problem. I'd agree that the "silent majority" probably
aren't affected, but then the majority of users probably don't stream
FLAC, and the problem being discussed here is isolated to high bitrate
files.

I think it's pointless to debate if there are sufficient incidences to
warrant action; there is a bug report, and if enough people vote for it
then attention will be paid. So far, there are only 5 votes, and that
just ain't enough to get the issue addressed. Eventually, some folks
like me will stop tilting against this particular windmill and spend the
$$$s to wire the house with CAT5...major bucks in my case.


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[Ben Sandee]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 5:39 PM,
GeeJay<GeeJay.3w7mon1249080001-NUepA2SMhDQqspMVqqL2D+4xXEVPTSb/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> I think it's pointless to debate if there are sufficient incidences to
> warrant action; there is a bug report, and if enough people vote for it
> then attention will be paid.  So far, there are only 5 votes, and that
> just ain't enough to get the issue addressed.

Incorrect. A bug report does not need to get votes to get addressed.
It's just one way that paid Logitech coders and volunteer coders may
assess a bug's credibility and/or severity.

Plenty of people stream FLAC all the time to a Boom (myself included)
over wireless. The OP's problem is surely real, but to leap to the
assumption that it is a firmware issue is better left to people who
have actually worked with the firmware.

Ben

[GeeJay]

The OP didn't say it was a firmware problem, at least not in the initial
post, just that something is wrong and he doesn't think it's a network
issue. Others are wondering the same thing, and firmware is just one
avenue of discussion...and I do think that if 35 people voted for the
bug instead of just 5, it probably would matter.

Facts are facts, however, and the fact that so few people are
complaining means that those saying "it must be a network problem" are
more likely correct than those saying, "I don't think so". That's the
nice thing about allowing people to vote on bugs...it gives you some
factual data to support the claim that a problem is "widespread".

As for me, I'm having a hard time isolating the issue if it is my
network, since all the other fixes I've tried have failed to work.
Having said that, just last night I was presented with more evidence
that my problem probably is network-related, as other users in the
household started complaining about slow internet connections on the
same network and say it's been going on for weeks.

It just goes to show you, ya never know... ;)


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[dsdreamer]

GeeJay;444859 Wrote:
> The OP didn't say it was a firmware problem, at least not in the initial
> post, just that something is wrong and he doesn't think it's a network
> issue. Others are wondering the same thing, and firmware is just one
> avenue of discussion...and I do think that if 35 people voted for the
> bug instead of just 5, it probably would matter.
>
> Facts are facts, however, and the fact that so few people are
> complaining means that those saying "it must be a network problem" are
> more likely correct than those saying, "I don't think so". That's the
> nice thing about allowing people to vote on bugs...it gives you some
> factual data to support the claim that a problem is "widespread".
>
> As for me, I'm having a hard time isolating the issue if it is my
> network, since all the other fixes I've tried have failed to work.
> Having said that, just last night I was presented with more evidence
> that my problem probably is network-related, as other users in the
> household started complaining about slow internet connections on the
> same network and say it's been going on for weeks.
>
> It just goes to show you, ya never know... ;)

BTW, bugs that get more than 6 votes are quite rare in the SD Bugzilla
data base: http://tinyurl.com/slimvotes2 (This bug has 7 votes.)

"Ya never know," is what I'd like people to keep in mind. Some people
seem to assume that every manifestation has a single unique cause. While
this issue seems to be related to network congestion, it could be also
unnecessarily vulnerable to network congestion due to a firmware bug, or
streaming protocol bug or... a combination of these. Perhaps I am only
*hiding* an underlying bug by making my network super-robust using wired
connections, or switching to .11n connections in unoccupied 5GHz
channels.


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[toby10]

timmorris;443522 Wrote:
> I have three players currently active:
>
> SB3
> SBR
> Boom
>
> I've increased the server priority to -21. As a test I've been running
> random song mixes on all 3 players. SBR is connected to one access point
> - strength 81. SB3 and Boom are connected to another access point signal
> strengths 71 and 99 respectively.
>
> Boom is the only player that I have a problem with. In less than 24
> hours it looses connection "rebuffering failed" and shows less than 20%
> signal strength in the information pane.
>
> I've reinstalled SC and deleted settings and performed a factory reset
> on the Boom.
>
> Something is wrong.
>
> Tim

If your Boom is going from 99% signal to a 20% signal then you have a
serious WiFi issue going on here.
Possibly some major interference near by? Neighbor running a microwave
tower?
20% WiFi signal would certainly see buffering issues, on most any
streaming device.

Or maybe just a typo? :)


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[BrynClarke]

I've come in late to this discussion - I have rebuffering on everything
- Internet radio live, BBC Listen again, QNAP NAS FLAC, QNAP NAS MP3...
Runs for about 10 seconds then stops and rebuffers for 20. I have SB3,
wireless, and other things (several laptops, PS3) use the wireless
network, so I'm starting by assuming that the wireless network is the
problem. I recently did a clean install of latest SqueezeCenter on
latest firmware on QNAP TS109. I have a Draytek Vigor2600G router.
Signal strength to the SB3 is only 25-30% and network test shows, on
practically any speed up to 1500 kbs, 10 seconds of 100% then dipping
well below that and slowly climbing up again.

My question (happy to start new thread or find another thread if this
is inappropriate here) is simply what remedies are available? I can't
change the geography of the house or go wired, so do I need to
investigate different routers, or can I piggy back two routers and
dedicate one for music streaming, or... I need to know what my options
are, so, in the first instance, where in this community or elsewhere to
seek advice.

All help gratefully received.


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[mberger]

Bryn - in my limited experience if you have a signal strength reading of
under 40% you will get some rebuffering. I got round the problem by
careful repositioning of the router. A very small movement can cause a
big change in strengh depending on the surrounding walls, electrical
implements etc. Failing that you could think about ethernet-over-mains.


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[dsdreamer]

BrynClarke;444934 Wrote:
> I've come in late to this discussion - I have rebuffering on everything
> - Internet radio live, BBC Listen again, QNAP NAS FLAC, QNAP NAS MP3...
> Runs for about 10 seconds then stops and rebuffers for 20. I have SB3,
> wireless, and other things (several laptops, PS3) use the wireless
> network, so I'm starting by assuming that the wireless network is the
> problem. I recently did a clean install of latest SqueezeCenter on
> latest firmware on QNAP TS109. I have a Draytek Vigor2600G router.
> Signal strength to the SB3 is only 25-30% and network test shows, on
> practically any speed up to 1500 kbs, 10 seconds of 100% then dipping
> well below that and slowly climbing up again.
>
> My question (happy to start new thread or find another thread if this
> is inappropriate here) is simply what remedies are available? I can't
> change the geography of the house or go wired, so do I need to
> investigate different routers, or can I piggy back two routers and
> dedicate one for music streaming, or... I need to know what my options
> are, so, in the first instance, where in this community or elsewhere to
> seek advice.
>
> All help gratefully received.

Are you sure you are using the least occupied WLAN channel? Check with
Netstumbler how many of your neighbors are trying to use the same
channel as you. If any other channel is less occupied, move there. Or
switch on automatic channel selection, if your router supports it.

Failing that, I think your two best options are move to draft 802.11n
in the 5GHz band, or use HomePlug(tm) or similar ethernet powerline
adapters. Either way, you're going to be spending some money.

In most countries there is plenty of bandwidth in the 5GHz range used
for 802.11a and draft 802.11n equipment. Your best bet is to use MIMO
equipped 802.11n adaptors (ones having two or more antenna), which can
largely compensate for the additional RF propagation path loss
experienced when moving from 2.4GHz to 5GHz frequencies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WLAN_channels

I have has success with Apple's Airport Express units as a means to
provide draft 802.11n/5GHz connectivity to all my Squeezebox units.
These need to be supported by a suitable 802.11n/5GHz or dual-band
router, of course. You can bridge from your existing network using an
Airport Express, or replace the whole kit and caboodle with a new
dual-band router.

Several users here have reported success with HomePlug type powerline
adaptors, and this would be worth considering as well.


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[chinablues]

Rebuffering was a pain for me. I have a transporter & duet.
Wirelessly, the Transporter on its own worked fine about 95% of the
time. Synchronizing the duet to transporter caused problems, almost
always with FLAC files. Wireless strength to Duet receiver probably the
main issue. (seems to me the Transporter has better receptivity than
the duet in picking up wireless signals). Installed 3 homeplug units,
master at computer, & one slave unit at Transporter & Duet receiver
locations. (TV, Blu-Ray Player, AVR, TV receiver unit & Transporter all
connected to an ethernet switch & this connected to the Homeplug unit in
living room. (Aztech, 200Mbps ). Worked fine ever since.

Dan


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[Squeezemeister]

My experience of the SB3 is that rebuffering over wi-fi appears to be a
stragely random act. One day the system will be working fine, the next
I'll have issues, especially on radio, and even on FLAC files played
from my HDD. Therefore, I do not believe 100% that it's an SB3 issue,
but something to do with interference from elsewhere, which is not
regular, but intermittent. Programmes like Netstumbler tell you which
router channel you and your neighbours are on, but it doesn't show the
level of interference from non-wi-fi sources such as cordless phones or
microwave ovens.

FYI inSSIDer has a companion, but chargeable app that shows you the
level of interference in your environment that is not down to your
router.

In my own case, I installed Solwise 85mbps homeplug Ethernet adapters.
On my ring main I get on average 68-72mbps speeds. The SB3 runs
perfectly when wired (famous last words). I would prefer wi-fi, but
there just seem to be too many variables to ensure perfect operation.
My environment is not all within my control though, which is why I am
reluctant to just blame the wireless SB3 and its ever changing s/w.

On a different note, what is the need for daily changes to the SC os?
Even I know enough about s/w to recognise that constant change almost
guarantees instability for the user.....


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[Dave Strickler]

Also note that plenty of things interfere with WiFi signals, such as
microwaves ovens, and cell phones. Depending on your router, they may
have conflicting (or closely conflicting) signals.

I used to work in an office where the local "Subway" sandwich shop
would kill our WiFi for 10 seconds or so as their turbo microwave
would kick in. We were on the 2nd floor of the building, and they were
on the 1st. It took us months to figure this out...

Dave Strickler
dstrickler-***@public.gmane.org




On Aug 2, 2009, at 3:59 AM, Squeezemeister wrote:

>
> My experience of the SB3 is that rebuffering over wi-fi appears to
> be a
> stragely random act. One day the system will be working fine, the
> next
> I'll have issues, especially on radio, and even on FLAC files played
> from my HDD. Therefore, I do not believe 100% that it's an SB3 issue,
> but something to do with interference from elsewhere, which is not
> regular, but intermittent. Programmes like Netstumbler tell you which
> router channel you and your neighbours are on, but it doesn't show the
> level of interference from non-wi-fi sources such as cordless phones
> or
> microwave ovens.
>
> FYI inSSIDer has a companion, but chargeable app that shows you the
> level of interference in your environment that is not down to your
> router.
>
> In my own case, I installed Solwise 85mbps homeplug Ethernet adapters.
> On my ring main I get on average 68-72mbps speeds. The SB3 runs
> perfectly when wired (famous last words). I would prefer wi-fi, but
> there just seem to be too many variables to ensure perfect operation.
> My environment is not all within my control though, which is why I am
> reluctant to just blame the wireless SB3 and its ever changing s/w.
>
> On a different note, what is the need for daily changes to the SC os?
> Even I know enough about s/w to recognise that constant change almost
> guarantees instability for the user.....
>
>
> --
> Squeezemeister
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> _______________________________________________
> discuss mailing list
> discuss-***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss

[dsdreamer]

1) I agree with the above two posts. The 2.4GHz ISM band is a very
tough environment for music streaming, and getting worse over time.
2) But, for some posters here it used to work fine on previous versions
of SC.
3) Since the SB system is designed to work using WiFi, it should be
robust to bursts of interference shorter than a buffer length.
4) Since most users will apply these devices in a non-ideal WiFi
environments, the performance of Squeezeboxen under such conditions
should be a known quantity (i.e., tested as part of the release process
for new versions of SC and new hardware products).
5) Bug 9393 is still open. "Buffer underun doesn't recover itself...",
and may (just possibly) be related to this issue.
6) It is quite possible that nothing is wrong with the presently
released hardware and software in respect of streaming performance under
network congestion conditions, but there is also inconclusive evidence
to the contrary, which makes it worth investigating.


As to people who want to draw conclusions already, based on the little
we know right now... well, let's just say that depending on your
profession, it might be a worrying trait.


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[mbonsack]

dsdreamer;445145 Wrote:
> 1) I agree with the above two posts. The 2.4GHz ISM band is a very
> tough environment for music streaming, and getting worse over time.
> 2) But, for some posters here it used to work fine on previous versions
> of SC.
> 3) Since the SB system is designed to work using WiFi, it should be
> robust to bursts of interference shorter than a buffer length.
> 4) Since most users will apply these devices in a non-ideal WiFi
> environments, the performance of Squeezeboxen under such conditions
> should be a known quantity (i.e., tested as part of the release process
> for new versions of SC and new hardware products).
> 5) Bug 9393 is still open. "Buffer underun doesn't recover itself...",
> and may (just possibly) be related to this issue.
> 6) It is quite possible that nothing is wrong with the presently
> released hardware and software in respect of streaming performance under
> network congestion conditions, but there is also inconclusive evidence
> to the contrary, which makes it worth investigating.
>

7) Implement 802.11n in the product. Congestion/crummier performance
as the band gets more crowded is exactly why n/MIMO/other newer wireless
technologies have been created. Yeah, I know it's draft, yada, yada,
yada, but it's certainly baked well enough that all new wireless gear is
N now. Get it done and I'll bet the problem, while maybe not solved at
the root cause, will be masked well enough to not affect most people.


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[dsdreamer]

mbonsack;445170 Wrote:
> 7) Implement 802.11n in the product. Congestion/crummier performance as
> the band gets more crowded is exactly why n/MIMO/other newer wireless
> technologies have been created. Yeah, I know it's draft, yada, yada,
> yada, but it's certainly baked well enough that all new wireless gear is
> N now. Get it done and I'll bet the problem, while maybe not solved at
> the root cause, will be masked well enough to not affect most people.

But, please make it 2x2 MIMO and _dual_band_ .11n because:

1) We need to get out of the 2.4GHz band, it's just not going to work
well enough in the long term.
2) If you go to 5GHz to escape the co-channel interference, you will
lose 6dB of signal strength on average, and a bit more besides due to
lower power transmit power, but a 2x2 MIMO system will recover about as
much as was lost compared to a single antenna solution at 2.4GHz.
3) If an Airport Express can implement (selectable dual-band) 2x2 MIMO
in its diminutive form factor, so could an updated version of any of the
current SB products.


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[BrynClarke]

>> Are you sure you are using the least occupied WLAN channel? Check
with Netstumbler how many of your neighbors are trying to use the same
channel as you. If any other channel is less occupied, move there. Or
switch on automatic channel selection, if your router supports it.

I got hold of Netstumbler and saw 8 other Access points within range,
on variouis channels. Channel 13 seemed to offer best S/N, so I went
with it. Didn't solve problem.

I then moved SqueezeBox three feet, signal strength went up from 20% to
60%, and it played FLAC for 3 hours without a glitch. !!!

Unfortunately, there's no way it can stay in that position normally.
So I've ordered a couple of Homeplugs.....

Thanks for the help


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[GeeJay]

The sad thing for me is, even the Homeplugs don't always work well. One
problem is my router and computer are in separate rooms, so I have a
potential bottleneck right there. I've thought about getting a small
minitower or NAS to tuck into the stereo cabinet and connect directly to
the router, but haven't wanted to shell out the bucks.

The Homeplugged devices normally work ok, but I've recorded speeds in
the low single digits from one location (as a result this is my only
wifi connection in the house...but even with 90% signal strength I still
have rebuffering issues with flac). My advice to those considering
making the Homeplug investment: buy just two and check the speeds from
each outlet you're considering connecting an SB before you make a large
investment.


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[DigitalMitch]

I've been suffering rebuffering for a while now, after a couple of years
of stable performance, and I'm fed up so I'm trying to take action.

I've ordered some more ethernet over power (Netgears HDX101) which
successfully stream video to PS3 (which had been unstable over wi-fi),
but until they arrive I'm stuck.

I can't run Netstumbler to review my wi-fi as both my p.c. and server
(HP MediaSmart) are hard-wired with no wifi capability.

Looking at network test on my furthest player and signal strength is
good (avergae 76 minimum 62) but buffer fullness drops at start of
tracks.

My suspicion (with no real data) is that 4 players streaming
synchronised FLAC is using too much of the avaiable wifi bandwidth and
that when coupled with some other uncapturable event (neighbours
microwave ??) causes the rebuffering. I rule out server speed as the
server does nothing but SqueezeCenter and MusicIP. I guess 7.3.3 is
either not as robust at handling this (the rebuffering error message
didn't use to exist) or has increased traffic to handle the improved
sync and exacrebated a problem.

Other than voting for the bug and implementing a ethernet over power,
is there anything else I should be trying?

Ethernet over power may fix this for me, but may not, and even if it
does the root cause is then left unaddressed and may cause problems for
others.


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[funkstar]

DigitalMitch;445679 Wrote:
> Other than voting for the bug and implementing a ethernet over power, is
> there anything else I should be trying?
Surely you have a friend that has either a laptop, USB/PCI wireless
adapter, Smartphone with wifi, or some other device that you could use
(invite them over for beer or something) to do some wireless
investigation with?


--
funkstar

my collection:
*1*x boom
*2*x controller, *1*x receiver
*2*x sb3 (sliver/black, *1*x sb2 wired (silver), *1*x sb (black)
*1*x slimp3 (with rear shield)

interested in any others if you have them!
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[Schindler]

Hello

I have a Transporter, a Classic and two Booms running different flac
files over WiFi at the same time without any problem...

Christian


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[dsdreamer]

Schindler;445739 Wrote:
> Hello
>
> I have a Transporter, a Classic and two Booms running different flac
> files over WiFi at the same time without any problem...
>
> Christian

No one denies that this system -can- work very well, and probably in
most installations it still does. But you don't even tell us what
version of SC you using without issues or whether you are using wireless
or wired, so I don't know that I feel much the wiser after your post!

If we really want to gather meaningful data, we should start a poll and
try to have it made sticky. E.g.

STREAMING IN 7.3.X:
A) Has been 100% reliable with all types of local music files in my
system
B) Required network upgrades since 7.3.x to become reliable
C) Occasionally fails in 7.3.x with local FLAC files >=500kbos
D) Occasionally fails even with lossy compressed files <=320Mbps
E) Doesn't work well enough for me, so I reverted to an older SC e.g.
7.2.x or earlier.

Comments on whether such a poll (in a new thread) would be useful?


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[aubuti]

dsdreamer;445778 Wrote:
> STREAMING IN 7.3.X:
> A) Has been 100% reliable with all types of local music files in my
> system
> B) Required network upgrades since 7.3.x to become reliable
> C) Occasionally fails in 7.3.x with local FLAC files >=500kbos
> D) Occasionally fails even with lossy compressed files <=320Mbps
> E) Doesn't work well enough for me, so I reverted to an older SC e.g.
> 7.2.x or earlier.
>
> Comments on whether such a poll (in a new thread) would be useful?
I don't think it would be useful. First there's the obvious selection
bias: people not having problems are unlikely to read the poll and much
less likely to be in the forums in the first place. Second, what do you
do with the results? From this thread I would predict that the poll will
show a small percentage of people having the problem, selection bias
notwithstanding. Does that mean it can/should be ignored? Not at all.

What's needed is not a poll, because the responses from the unaffected
are useless in diagnosing a problem they don't have. Instead focus on
systematic diagnostics with those who have the rebuffering to isolate
the problem. I have forgotten a lot of what's in this thread, but it
seems that there are several cases where going from 7.3.x to 7.2.x
resolved the problem. That narrows it down to a finite (large, but
finite) set of possible causes.

My data: currently running SC 7.3.3 on five SBs (the others are running
7.4, also without rebuffering problems). Two SBs are wired and the rest
are wifi. Local library is about 95% FLAC and the rest MP3. Frequently
sync'ing 2 or 3 SBs, especially for the past 2-3 months. No rebuffering
problems at all.


--
aubuti

Nothing high-end, but music anywhere I want it, and it's '100% wind
powered' (http://www.cleancurrents.com/). MSI Wind desktop (Ubuntu 8.10)
feeding: Living room: SB3 > JVC JA-S44 > Vandersteen 1; Kitchen/Dining:
SB2 + SBC > AudioSource Amp100 > 2 pairs Polk RC60i; Basement: Duet >
Technics SA-EX140 > ESS Tempest LS8; Bedroom: Boom + SBC; Study: Duet >
Klipsch ProMedia 2.0; Kid's bedroom: SB2 > Klipsch ProMedia 2.0
http://www.last.fm/user/aubuti/
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[dsdreamer]

aubuti;445813 Wrote:
> I don't think it would be useful. First there's the obvious selection
> bias: people not having problems are unlikely to read the poll and much
> less likely to be in the forums in the first place. Second, what do you
> do with the results? From this thread I would predict that the poll will
> show a small percentage of people having the problem, selection bias
> notwithstanding. Does that mean it can/should be ignored? Not at all.
>

Good points all. I would hope that Logitech QA could take some actions
rather than leaving it to end users, though.

I would -like- to develop a testbench using various access points
coupled together with switchable RF attenuators, coax and some TCP/IP
traffic generators made out of Linux boxes, so that I could inject
controlled amounts of co-channel interference and thereby mess with the
QoS of the wanted stream traffic in a known, repeatable way. Then I
could gather some meaningful information about the robustness of the
current generation of SB h/w and f/w. But as a private end-user with
limited financial means and limited time to play, this is not something
I can realistically get done.


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[aubuti]

dsdreamer;445842 Wrote:
> Good points all. I would hope that Logitech QA could take some actions
> rather than leaving it to end users, though.
Agreed, but the usual rule applies: if they can't reproduce it, they
can't fix it (unless they just get lucky with "collateral improvement").
There's an open bug (13092) with a whopping *two* posts. One of the
posters eliminated the rebuffering by changing his router, and the other
resolved the problem by pulling ethernet cable. Unless there's another
bug report I've overlooked, that doesn't give QA much to go on.


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[dsdreamer]

aubuti;445847 Wrote:
> Unless there's another bug report I've overlooked, that doesn't give QA
> much to go on.

QA also have the ability (if not the resources) to create a controlled,
non-ideal network test environment to test performance under repeatable
network congestion conditions. The trouble with distributed random
testing in the user community is that it is not repeatable or
controlled, and unless something is grossly wrong, the feedback is
usually ambiguous.


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[toby10]

dsdreamer;445855 Wrote:
> QA also have the ability (if not the resources) to create a controlled,
> non-ideal network test environment to test performance under repeatable
> network congestion conditions. The trouble with distributed random
> testing in the user community is that it is not repeatable or
> controlled, and unless something is grossly wrong, the feedback is
> usually ambiguous.

True. But this does offer limitless combinations of environments,
hardware, settings, and conditions the devs could never even dream up.

If you want to draw more attention to the issue I'd suggest researching
the bugs extensively for any related bugs and then post those bug URLS
in your forum posts, repeatedly. You would likely get more people to
vote on it and contribute to the bug if you made it easy to do so.
Many, like myself, are not experiencing this issue so I am not likely to
go researching bugs for a non-issue (to me). :)


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[aubuti]

dsdreamer;445855 Wrote:
> QA also have the ability (if not the resources) to create a controlled,
> non-ideal network test environment to test performance under repeatable
> network congestion conditions. The trouble with distributed random
> testing in the user community is that it is not repeatable or
> controlled, and unless something is grossly wrong, the feedback is
> usually ambiguous.
What, you don't think they already do that? Of course they do. Comments
like that, especially your header "'Works for me' is good enough, then?"
(which is exactly the opposite of what I said, btw) are decidedly
unproductive. Sheesh.


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[dsdreamer]

aubuti;445938 Wrote:
> What, you don't think they already do that? Of course they do. Comments
> like that, especially your header "'Works for me' is good enough, then?"
> (which is exactly the opposite of what I said, btw) are decidedly
> unproductive. Sheesh.

Aside from the fact that I've managed to offend you (which I am sorry
about), I am actually satisified with the level of attention this issue
is recieving inside Logitech SMBU.

As to whether there is a formal, automated test that allows these
matters to be readily investigated (e.g. find the bandwidth constriction
breaking point of 7.3.3 and compare it to the breaking point if 7.2.1),
I don't think so, based on the methods that have been used to
investigate other streaming related bugs (see
https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9393#c24 ). I admit it is
possible that Andy has his methods and QA have much better ones, but
until I know better I am assuming not.


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[maggior]

dsdreamer -

I gave up and had to finally resort to Google to determine the source
of you signature. It was driving me crazy because it sounded so
familiar but I could NOT figure out where it was from:

"Dreamer, easy in the chair that really fits you..."

As it turns out, it is from one of my favorite songs "Heart of the
Sunrise"!


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 3 Booms, 1 duet, 1 receiver. SuSE 11.0 Server running
SqueezeCenter 7.3.3, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 27,698 songs, 2,304 albums, 439 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
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[dsdreamer]

maggior;446250 Wrote:
> dsdreamer -
>
> I gave up and had to finally resort to Google to determine the source
> of you signature. It was driving me crazy because it sounded so
> familiar but I could NOT figure out where it was from:
>
> "Dreamer, easy in the chair that really fits you..."
>
> As it turns out, it is from one of my favorite songs "Heart of the
> Sunrise"!

I happen to love that track as well, and for me that particular line
describes the experience of taking time to really listen, along with
"Straight light searching all the meanings of the song."


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[ziggyb63]

Interesting. I started a thread here
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65801 basically about the
same issue.

I could have sworn my network was OK - PCs were working, game consoles
ran internet games etc. Turned out for me it was one port on my gigabit
switch that was failing intermittently. 99.9% of the time the port
worked fine, the other 0.1% it crapped out for 10-20 seconds. As usual
with these things, the port started to fail at the same time I upgraded
to 7.3.3, so naturally I chose to blame the software!

My 2c...


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[maggior]

dsdreamer;446270 Wrote:
> I happen to love that track as well, and for me that particular line
> describes the experience of taking time to really listen, along with
> "Straight light searching all the meanings of the song."

This must be from Jon's phase of putting words together just for how
they sounded without reguard to what they meant. I recall reading
something about that someplace.

I've listened to that song a million times, yet I still can't tell you
what half the lyrics are :-)

The opening part with Chis' bass is just awesome. Bruford's drumming
is stellar too! An incredible song in every respect.

I think I'll have to queue up some Yes this afternoon. :-).

(And back to our regularly scheduled SB discussion...)


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 3 Booms, 1 duet, 1 receiver. SuSE 11.0 Server running
SqueezeCenter 7.3.3, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 27,698 songs, 2,304 albums, 439 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
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[maggior]

I've been home a lot recently (kidney stones are so much fun!) and had
an opportunity to spend a lot of time listening to my squeezeboxes.

I have an SBR in my kitchen and in my living room (which shares a wall
with the kitchen). This is what I've been using mostly all week to
stream my FLAC library. Here are some things I've noticed:

1) The microwave oven greatly affects my SBR in the living room. I was
using Moose when my wife turned the nuke on and I noted that the signal
level went from ~60% to ~20%. Needless to say there was constant
rebuffering.

2) The kitchen SBR is known to be affected the nuke. We got into the
habit of pausing it when using nuking food. Regardless, sometimes
afterwards the SBR would continue to rebuffer randomly for up to an hour
afterwards.

3) Today it got rediculous with rebuffering in my kitchen. Out of
desperation, I rebooted my wireless router - problem solved! Interesting
point though is that none of my SB3s or Booms were affected at this time
- they continued to stream OK. ???

4) When using my SBR in the living room, Moose will randomly show the
signal drop down to 25% for up to 30 seconds. Most of the time, there is
no rebuffering! Sometimes there is though, preceded by the front light
showing "dim white" even though music is playing. Perhaps there is
something outside of the house causing interference?

5) My kids use their Booms EVERY night going to sleep. Occasionally
I'll use the microwave when while they are falling asleep. NEVER have
the Booms rebuffered or stopped streaming. One of them even has a
marginal signal of 40-45%, but never has a hiccup. Their bedrooms are
upstairs, the kitchen on the floor below under their rooms, and the WAP
is in the basement. Basically, the nuke is smack in the middle of the
router and the upstairs Booms! Yet they are unaffected.

6) I use my SB3 EVERY night to go to sleep and it NEVER rebuffers.


Conclusions
1) It is certainly not 100% conclusive, but I have a strong sense that
the SBRs are more susceptible to WiFi interference than the Boom or SB3.
If I have an opportunity to do a lot of listening again, I may swap out
my SBR in my living room with an SB3 and see how it behaves.

2) Resetting the router is sometimes necessary, even if other SBs are
not affected. *** This may help others that are having problems that
seem endless.

3) There may be a difference in the streaming in 7.3.3 from 7.2.1, but
the environment definitely is a factor. I had problems with 7.2.1, but
they seem to be more prevelant with 7.3.3. With 7.2.1, the stream would
just stop, or the track would restart from the beginning. Now it will
rebuffer and pick up from where it left off. Different
behavior...yes...but this is actually more robust behavor!


My plan of action:
1) I ordered a pair of homeplugs for the kitchen SBR - CAT-5 to the
kitchen just isn't an option. I'm tired of having to screw around with
the SBR when it gets scrambed by running the microwave. I can understand
it rebuffering, but often it gets into a state where, even after the
oven has been turned off, it randomly stops streaming. Usually this is
preceded by the light on the front going to "dim white" even though it
is still playing. Resetting the router occasionally helps, but when this
happens, where aren't the other SBs affected?

2) I will run cat-5 to my SBR in the living room. It is relatively easy
for me to do and I want to run a wire there for another reason anyway.
It's just as easy to run 2 runs as 1.

I will report back once I have these changes in place if I notice a
difference in behavior. I certainly expect that I will.


As an aside, I finally talked my brother into getting a squeezebox. He
was seduced by the SBC and went with a Duet. I hope I'm not going to
regret it and find myself on the defensive and trying to get him to
spend more money running CAT-5 or purchasing (expensive!) homeplugs.


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 3 Booms, 1 duet, 1 receiver. SuSE 11.0 Server running
SqueezeCenter 7.3.3, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 27,698 songs, 2,304 albums, 439 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
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[dsdreamer]

Improving the network seems necessary in your case, and I'm sure you'll
see improvements from so doing.

The jury remains out as to whether things have gotten worse due to some
regression in the software or firmware that makes up the Squeezebox
system. I suspect only a controlled experiment, with controlled amounts
of network congestion/radio interference will be able to answer that
one. The closest thing to a *user report* that could shed some light on
it is if someone reverts to 7.2.1 and gets perfect playback, goes to
7.3.3 and it's broken again, and then reverts to 7.2.1 and it stays
fixed. And as you rightly point out, it's not the rebuffering message
that is the problem, it's interruptions to playback we care about.

I suggest that anyone who has experiences that suggest the latest 7.3.3
or 7.3.4 is more fragile than a previous version post to the bug report
https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13092. I don't think it is
particularly worth posting info to the bug that improving the network
improved the streaming experience, because that is what we'd all expect
whether or not there is a particular bug to be found. Probably, that
point has been emphasized enough by now :-)

Good luck with your network improvements; it's always a good investment
to make your network more robust, particularly in your case, since you
were already seeing issues with 7.2.1.


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[Mnyb]

dsdreamer;447284 Wrote:
> Improving the network seems necessary in your case, and I'm sure you'll
> see improvements from so doing.
>
> The jury remains out as to whether things have gotten worse due to some
> regression in the software or firmware that makes up the Squeezebox
> system. I suspect only a controlled experiment, with controlled amounts
> of network congestion/radio interference will be able to answer that
> one. The closest thing to a *user report* that could shed some light on
> it is if someone reverts to 7.2.1 and gets perfect playback, goes to
> 7.3.3 and it's broken again, and then reverts to 7.2.1 and it stays
> fixed. And as you rightly point out, it's not the rebuffering message
> that is the problem, it's interruptions to playback we care about.
>
> I suggest that anyone who has experiences that suggest the latest 7.3.3
> or 7.3.4 is more fragile than a previous version post to the bug report
> https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13092. I don't think it is
> particularly worth posting info to the bug that improving the network
> improved the streaming experience, because that is what we'd all expect
> whether or not there is a particular bug to be found. Probably, that
> point has been emphasized enough by now :-)
>
> Good luck with your network improvements; it's always a good investment
> to make your network more robust, particularly in your case, since you
> were already seeing issues with 7.2.1.

Other thoughts:

1.

It is a known fact that upgrades don't always perform well in Squeeze
system have anyone experiencing mystery problems tried a clean install
removing everything SC or at least deleting the cache files ?

2.

Have anyone tried with an alternative OS install on the same hardware
?
Here is what i'm experienced years ago, my upgrade from 6.3 to 6.5 was
not good it stopped randomly so i tried 7.0 no joy could stop at random
occasions 1-2 times a week.
Did the network test 1500kbps ?

Installed ubuntu on another partition on the machine, network test
3000kbps !
wtf ? this indicated to me that it was no router or network card
problem.

My XP partition was a pre installed one delivered with my PC i have no
"real" OS cd/dvd to do installs with, only a restore partition with pre
configured stuff. For example it came pre infected with Norton and i had
never versions of Norton installed afterwards, i removed that and used
ezet for while, but i distrused Nortons removal tool etc.

There is something slightly fishy with my old XP install, as it was an
oem installed pc it does not come with the tools do something creative
about it.
It runs 6.3 just fine but no other versions. I have a suspicion that
MySQL was introduced after 6.3 or do I remember it wrong .

To rule out the OS do a multiboot install, the alternative OS don't
need to be a linux if thats uncomfortable to you, i think it's enough to
try a fresh install of something. Start without firewalls or AV
applications introduce you AV/FW of choice later and see whats
happening.


--
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No it can NOT be controlled with iTunes....
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[maggior]

dsdreamer;447284 Wrote:
>
>
> I suspect only a controlled experiment, with controlled amounts of
> network congestion/radio interference will be able to answer that one.

I agree. This will be next to impossible for the average user to do at
home. My wife wouldn't be too keen on having the basement turned into a
Faraday cage to block out RFI! :-) It would even be difficult for
Logitech to do I suspect. That's what makes issues like this nasty
because there are soooo many factors involved.

One thing I learned by closely looking at my network/SB performance
last week is that things aren't always what they seem. I thought I
didn't have any interference issues outside my house, but my SBR
dropping from 50% to 25% signal for no apparent reason tells me
otherwise :-(. That's a nice feature of Moose in that it lets you see
the signal strength in real time.


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 3 Booms, 1 duet, 1 receiver. SuSE 11.0 Server running
SqueezeCenter 7.3.3, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 27,698 songs, 2,304 albums, 439 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
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[Pascal Hibon]

I also experience drop outs in my music with SC 7.3.3. It happens very
sporadic. Usually it happens when I first start the music (most of the
times I&#8217;m using Random Song Mix). It also happens during playback
at later instances. The issue doesn&#8217;t show up very often but it is
annoying when it does. The music would stop for a couple of seconds and
then continue to play as normal. There is no particular message being
displayed when this happens. I have two SB3&#8217;s in my system, both
wireless. This setup hasn&#8217;t changed since many years. The wireless
signal is about 75% on both SB3&#8217;s. All my music is wav format.
At first I thought it was due to my move from a file server to a
ReadyNAS NV+. I was running SC 7.2.1 on my file server. I&#8217;ve been
monitoring my NV+ and it is actually not showing any heavy load when
both my SB&#8217;s are playing. CPU consumption is between 6 and 9 %;
memory usage is 7.9%. My NV+ has 1GB of memory. I guess I can rule out
the NV+ as the culprit.
I want to install SC version 7.2.1 and I found this link:
http://downloads.slimdevices.com/SqueezeCenter_v7.2.1/
But which of those files is for a ReadyNAS with a Sparc processor?


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[awy]

Here is a copy of a comment I posted in bug 13092:
>
> Bug 9517 meant that, prior to 7.3 (SB fw 117, TR fw 67, SBR fw 52, SBB
> fw 37),
> FLAC playback was almost incapable of generating the necessary underrun
> events
> to provoke rebuffering. There may have been gappy playback but no
> "rebuffering" would have occurred.
>
> It is possible that there is some other f/w bug that means that
> underrun events are now being generated unnecessarily, in turn provoking
> rebuffering when it is not needed.
>

I was responsible for the new-streaming work in SC 7.3. Although a lot
of code changed, I cannot think of anything that would impede the
streaming of local FLAC tracks. I have been over the code several
times.

It is clear that some people are seeing issues that were not there
before. Despite significant investigations, we are no closer to
understanding why. If you are in a position to provide useful diagnostic
information (for local FLAC tracks only) then please do so in
https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13092


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[Pascal Hibon]

This issue is not related to FLAC streaming only. I stream WAV and I
also experienced the issue with 7.3.3. For now I went back to 7.2.1. and
that works fine. I guess it is fair to say that the issue is more likely
to occur when streaming larger audio formats (lossless).

I noticed that the streaming generates a relatively constant data flow
on the network. Near the end of a song, the dataflow becomes more
important. On a 10Mb network, the load went up to 30% which is
significant. This was measured with only one SB3 streaming audio. On a
100Mb this will drop down of course. But nevertheless, streaming
generates an important amount of data packets on the network. It is
therefore very much possible that some people may run into issues if
they already have a busy network. In a cabled environment this is very
easy to solve by upgrading to a gigabit backbone. Gigabit networks can
even use jumbo frames if required and that will benefit the network
traffic even further. But wireless is a different story. Since an Access
Point is a bridge, it will bridge all cabled traffic to the wireless
(and vice versa) putting a lot of load on the wireless network if the
cabled network is busy.

It might be wise to try and find ways to decrease the traffic generated
by the streaming protocol. One way of doing that is to use a larger
buffer in the players. A larger buffer would give the player more
“stream ahead” room and this would decrease the possibility of running
out of buffer. But I don’t know if that is possible in the current line
of players (hardware wise).

In any case, there is a difference between the streaming of SC 7.3.3.
and SC 7.2.1. By knowing this, it should be fairly easy to compare the
traffic generated between those two versions and find a solution to the
issue. In order to debug an issue like this, you’ll need to use a
network sniffer. Microsoft provides one for free here:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=983b941d-06cb-4658-b7f6-3088333d062f&displaylang=en


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[Bery]

Hi,
I can also confirm dropouts in streaming after installing SC 7.3.3 on
my ReadyNAS DUO ( 1 GB RAM ). In most cases happens with the first song
and especially in Random Mix mode. Please, work on it :)


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[johndpar]

Same here with Qnap TS209. Definitely something broken in 7.3.3.

John


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[maggior]

Pascal Hibon;449381 Wrote:
> This issue is not related to FLAC streaming only. I stream WAV and I
> also experienced the issue with 7.3.3. For now I went back to 7.2.1. and
> that works fine. I guess it is fair to say that the issue is more likely
> to occur when streaming larger audio formats (lossless).
>

As far as I know, the default configuration of SC is to convert WAV
files to FLAC prior to streaming. So, even though your source files are
in WAV format, you are actually streaming FLAC over the network to your
player. That is unless you've taken steps in the configuration to
bypass that.

Do you see a spike in CPU activity on the NAS at the beginning of a
track? Since transcoding has to occur, perhaps the issue is that the
CPU is spiking and not able to encode enough to FLAC to keep the stream
going at the very beginning of the file.


--
maggior

Rich
---------
Setup: 2 SB3s, 3 Booms, 1 duet, 1 receiver. SuSE 11.0 Server running
SqueezeCenter 7.3.3, MusicIP, and SqueezeSlave.
Current library stats: 27,698 songs, 2,304 albums, 439 artists.
http://www.last.fm/user/maggior
Looking forward to new Porcupine Tree, Megadeth, Alice in Chains, and
The Beatles Box set. September will be an expensive month :-)
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[johndpar]

I should have said that in my case it is FLAC files streaming as FLAC to
SBR which is wireless.

I know the wifi link could be better so next try is some homeplug
adaptors and if that still does not work it could be time to run a
cable.

Regards

John


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[Pascal Hibon]

maggior;449806 Wrote:
> As far as I know, the default configuration of SC is to convert WAV
> files to FLAC prior to streaming. So, even though your source files are
> in WAV format, you are actually streaming FLAC over the network to your
> player. That is unless you've taken steps in the configuration to
> bypass that.
>
> Do you see a spike in CPU activity on the NAS at the beginning of a
> track? Since transcoding has to occur, perhaps the issue is that the
> CPU is spiking and not able to encode enough to FLAC to keep the stream
> going at the very beginning of the file.

I now have version 7.2.1 installed which works fine. CPU load is
between 6 and 9% during playback (this was the same with 7.3.3). Nearing
the end of a song CPU load goes up gradually. The highest peaks I
noticed was 74% - it tends to differ from song to song. I don’t know at
what value it peaked with 7.3.3.
Memory usage with 7.2.1 is 5.5%; with 7.3.3 memory consumption was
around 9%. These figures should be fine for the NV+ (even those of
7.3.3).
My NAS is still very responsive even with SC peaking at higher levels
during buffer loads at the beginning of each song. I actually can’t tell
any difference in performance during the heavier SC loads. I must say
that I’m very happy with the NV+ considering it uses a SPARC processor.

As for the streaming format: I didn’t change anything on the
configuration – so I guess I’m streaming FLAC then. In the Advanced tab,
on the File type page, WAV is set to system default.


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[Pascal Hibon]

Another update: I ran the linux top command with the –d1 option on my
NV+ to update the display every second. Then I pressed FWD on the SB
remote (to speed up the “beginning of next track” event). The highest
CPU load I noticed was 97% during this test. Again, it varies for
different songs. The upper CPU load stays there for 1 second at most.
This is still with 7.2.1. Still no rebuffering occurring.
This is certainly something to investigate further. Maybe 7.3.3 max out
the CPU usage in some occasions and so causing the rebuffering.

Bery, can you try this on your DUO? You’ll need to install the
EnableRootSSH addon http://www.readynas.com/?page_id=617. Next login to
your NAS using something like PuTTY
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ .
Username is root and psw is the same as your admin. At the linux prompt
run “top –d1”.
See here for more info on the top command:
http://linux.about.com/od/commands/l/blcmdl1_top.htm. Note that linux
commands are case sensitive. Press CTRL-C to exit the top command. And
type “exit” to close the SSH session when finished. I’m curious to see
the results with 7.3.3


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[Bery]

Pascal Hibon;449860 Wrote:
>
> Bery, can you try this on your DUO?
>
> Well, I did and moreless the same ( btw: top process consumes 5% CPU
> ).
>
> Mode Random Mix. At the very beginning mysqld uses as much CPU as
> possible to create a list of random songs. Following SC load approx.
> 60%. Then streaming load approx. 8.5% CPU. CPU load rises at the end of
> song ( most likely aggresive caching by SB ). I used remote for FWD /
> RWD songs - max. load approx 85%. Despite my will to create a high load
> and as a consequence drop-out, I failed. Everything worked fine this
> time.
>
> I've noticed mysqld process pops up randomly during streaming with high
> CPU load. Couldn't be this the cause?


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Bery
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[mobileadam]

I too have had problems with sound drop outs and rebuffering on 7.3.3. I
also experienced a problem with the music stopping completely and
logging indicates something about multiple errors and then giving up
(hence the music is stopped).

I couldn't reproduce the problem on demand but it mainly occured when I
was using random mode and syncing two receivers. My problems seem to be
solved by hardwiring one of my receivers that I thought had the weaker
wireless signal.

I remember that 7.3.x was meant to improve the 'Rebuffering' issues - I
jokingly think the new release just doesn't show the message so often
but the problem is still there.


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mobileadam
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[funkstar]

dsdreamer;445842 Wrote:
> Good points all. I would hope that Logitech QA could take some actions
> rather than leaving it to end users, though.
Just because the Devs or Support are not active in this thread, does
not mean it is completely overlooked. :)


--
funkstar

my collection:
*1*x boom
*2*x controller, *1*x receiver
*2*x sb3 (sliver/black, *1*x sb2 wired (silver), *1*x sb (black)
*1*x slimp3 (with rear shield)

interested in any others if you have them!
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[benthos]

andyg;441530 Wrote:
> Before you give up, try and see if running SC on a server that is faster
> than your cell phone fixes the problem. :) I kid, but only slightly,
> about how slow the non-x86 ReadyNAS boxes are.

I know what you mean, but I experienced the same problem often before
getting the Readynas. I was using a 2.2 ghz laptop. I'm convinced the
problem is software-based.


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benthos
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[dsdreamer]

benthos;441640 Wrote:
> I know what you mean, but I experienced the same problem often before
> getting the Readynas. I was using a 2.2 ghz laptop. I'm convinced the
> problem is software-based.

I use FLAC for 95% of my music collection, and I use a wireless
connection for the link to the SB3 client. I get 100% solid
performance, and have never seen a rebuffering message on FLAC playback
(occasionally with internet radio, but that is understandable).

This is not to say you aren't having problems, because clearly you are,
but I can also assert that under different conditions 7.3.3 can perform
flawlessly. I have noticed an increased number of rebuffering complaints
in these forums, though, so we have to entertain the possibility that
something is going on.

* Although your connection is wired, it may still be worth doing some
throughput tests from the SB3 client (Settings ==> Information ==>
Network test.) A bad router could still screw up a wired connection.

* Try swapping out for a different server hardware, even though you
don't suspect the ReadyNas. Having a fresh install on different hardware
would eliminate quite a number of variables.

* Try a factory reset of the SB3 in question.

* Try using software clients (Squeezeplay, Squeezeslave, Softsqueeze)
instead of hardware ones just to eliminate the SB3 as a source of
trouble.

If you would do all the above, you would have eliminated in turn the
source, the connection and the client and I am quite convinced that one
of these will cause the problem to vanish. If so, you will know a
great deal more about where to look to finally solve the issue.


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dsdreamer

----------------------
"Dreamer, easy in the chair that really fits you..."
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[toby10]

benthos;441640 Wrote:
> I know what you mean, but I experienced the same problem often before
> getting the Readynas. I was using a 2.2 ghz laptop. I'm convinced the
> problem is software-based.

I can stream full WAV's via WiFi to my SB player from a wired 1.8 ghz
laptop without issue.
Admittedly I'm not streaming video files at the same time, but general
internet surfing and basic computer tasks never bothers the WAV stream.

WinXP, SC7.3.3


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