Discussion:
New SB ?
DejanM
2012-07-24 15:45:14 UTC
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Hi,

I think it is a time to put a new SB unit on the market. SB Touch is ok
but we (customers, market in general) need something that can play
24/192 or even 32/384. Is there something cooking in the kitchen ?


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garym
2012-07-24 15:48:05 UTC
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DejanM wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think it is a time to put a new SB unit on the market. SB Touch is ok
> but we (customers, market in general) need something that can play
> 24/192 or even 32/384. Is there something cooking in the kitchen ?

install the free Triode's EDO plugin and you can play 24/192 via S/PDIF,
Optical, or USB out to a DAC that supports it.


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aubuti
2012-07-24 16:27:47 UTC
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Oh, and Logitech has a policy of not commenting about what is, or is
not, cooking in the kitchen. They wait until the meal is ready to be
served. At least as long as some bonehead distributor doesn't leak the
information first, as happened with the Touch several months before its
release.


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Mnyb
2012-07-24 22:31:49 UTC
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DejanM wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think it is a time to put a new SB unit on the market. SB Touch is ok
> but we (customers, market in general) need something that can play
> 24/192 or even 32/384. Is there something cooking in the kitchen ?

No we don't 24/96 is already overkill for human listeners ? We need
better recordings , the delivery format has very litle influence
compared to the sound of the master/recording . ( actually the sq of the
majority of existing recordings is such that not even 16/44.1 is a
technical limit )

If some vendor insit on selling 24/192 LMS can down sample on the fly to
24/96 or if your servers is a low powered NAS you can do that offline ,
or buy the 24/96 content .
If yourdac is working properly a human being simply can not hear the
diff between 24/192 and 24/96 .

I suggest an experiment downsample one of your own 24/192 or 24/96
tracks to 16/44.1 and set up some kind of blind test . I've done that
it's very revealing .
It sometimes happens that some hirez version of a recording actually
sounds better than the CD version ,but this has nothing to do with
16/44.1 vs 24/96 but they simply sourced a better version/master .

So you can have the benefit of a better master in any delivery format >=
16/44.1 they will sound the same .

You migth have to dowsample yourself to see this, as coincidentally the
different cd and hirez and DVDA or SACD version are never from,the same
master ( with some minor exceptions ) and all of the sound different .
you can bet on that on a hybrid disc the cd layer and DSD/DVDA layer
will never sound the same ;)


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Mnyb
2012-07-24 22:34:13 UTC
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On topic yes I agree we need some more sb products but not because of
this reason.


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michel
2012-07-25 06:23:03 UTC
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Mnyb wrote:
> On topic yes I agree we need some more sb products but not because of
> this reason.

+1 :)


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Corelli45
2012-07-25 07:17:13 UTC
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Channel classics have a download comparison sampler with three versions
of the same track, one at 16/44, one at 24/96 and one at 24/192.We
definitely heard more space between the instruments in the 24/192
version. Have a listen.Iforget the music, but it was cello driven.


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aubuti
2012-07-25 11:12:57 UTC
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Two simple questions: When you were listening, did you know which
resolution you were listening to? And are you 100% certain all three are
from the same masterings?


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Corelli45
2012-07-26 08:59:51 UTC
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The resolutions are clearly marked on each version...I can only assume
that Channel Classics are being honest with the presentation though I
can think of no way to prove this. The music is Botessini Capiccio di
Bravura in A Major by Rick Stotijn. Listen ans see what you think.It's a
free download. There are also interesting comparisons on the 2L test
bench.


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aubuti
2012-07-26 11:24:32 UTC
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Perhaps my first question was misunderstood, so let me rephrase. At the
time you were doing the comparisons, did you know which of the
resolutions you were listening to, or did you "anonymize" them as A, B,
and C, and come to your conclusions on the basis of sound quality alone,
without knowledge of which resolution it was. You know, blind testing?

And the answer to my second question is no (because you're not certain).
The way to be certain is simple, as already suggested by Mnyb: take a
24/192 track, downsample it yourself to 24/96 and 16/44.1, and then
compare those.

I have seen too many cases of people _thinking_ they are comparing
16/44.1 with 24/48 or 24/96 when in fact they are comparing different
resolutions _and_ different masterings, also known as apples and
oranges.


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Corelli45
2012-07-26 12:32:13 UTC
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Sorry...I did misunderstand your first question.

During the initial listening, though I knew the resolutions my listening
partner did not. He did identify differences between the 16/44 and the
24/192. He discerned a deeper and wider soundstage and more separation
between the instruments. This confirmed my own initial thoughts. Having
listened again today, there is a slightly more constricted quality to
the lower resolution sample than the higher. The higher resolution
sample appears to relax into the soundstage opening out a little more
and creating a less bright presentation.

I will investigate your second question more closely being aware that
some companies do upsample the original 16/44 rates.

Thanks
Corelli


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kmr
2012-07-27 14:02:12 UTC
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Corelli45 wrote:
> Sorry...I did misunderstand your first question.
>
> During the initial listening, though I knew the resolutions my listening
> partner did not.

That's enough to cause bias; your listening partner could have picked up
on your reactions (whether voluntary or involuntary). All it takes is
tiny clues to invalidate a blind test.


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aubuti
2012-07-27 15:22:55 UTC
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Agreed, and in this instance it's really pretty easy to do a
double-blind test, or do away with the partner entirely and have a valid
single-blind test.

1) use the same original source (24/192), and downsample to get the
24/96 and 16/44.1. That way you know that any difference isn't down to
different masterings.

2) tag the three tracks the same way, so that the SB player display and
web ui do not give any indication of which is which.

3) generate a playlist with the three tracks in random order. Better
yet, allow for a playlist of up to 6 or 10 tracks, so that each version
has a chance of being played more than once. This will permit the
listener to identify tracks as "different" when in fact they are exactly
the same. There are a couple different ways you could do this.

a) put the three tracks in a playlist multiple times and activate
shuffle mode

b) use the Random playlist plugin. To make sure you only get those three
tracks you could either (i) tag them with a unique genre, and limit the
random play to that genre, or (ii) temporarily tell LMS that the
folder(s) with the three tracks is your entire music library.

4) start listening. Listen each version of the track in its entirety, or
jump back and forth between the tracks as much as you like. When
listening, only pay attention to what # _on_the_playlist_ you are
listening to. Keep notes if you like.

5) after you've listened enough, write down which tracks on the playlist
sounded better / deeper / wider / more relaxed / more constricted /
brighter / etc.

6) go to the LMS web ui and drill down for each track to see whether it
was 24/192, 24/96, or 16/44.1. Compare to your list in #5. Voilà.

No doubt this protocol can be improved upon, so feel free to suggest
any. I've used it several times and have been struck by how seldom I
hear a difference. Could be my aging ears, could be my unrevealig mid-fi
system, could be my room acoustics, could be the recordings themselves,
could be there really is no audible difference. But at least I can rule
out expectation bias and the power of suggestion.


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Corelli45
2012-07-27 15:05:44 UTC
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Yes, that's very true so I intend to down sample and compare again.

Thanks


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Corelli45
2012-07-27 20:04:31 UTC
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Thanks for that. What's the best way to downsample?


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garym
2012-07-27 20:08:42 UTC
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Corelli45 wrote:
> Thanks for that. What's the best way to downsample?

I know you can do this easily in dbpoweramp. Maybe in foobar2000 as
well.


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aubuti
2012-07-27 20:10:43 UTC
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I think most people use 'SoX' (http://sox.sourceforge.net) or
'foobar2000' (www.foobar2000.org).


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Gingernut63
2012-07-27 21:21:26 UTC
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Mnyb wrote:
> No we don't 24/96 is already overkill for human listeners ? We need
> better recordings , the delivery format has very litle influence
> compared to the sound of the master/recording . ( actually the sq of the
> majority of existing recordings is such that not even 16/44.1 is a
> technical limit )

I agree with Mynb that you would not be able to hear any difference
using the higher resolution for music delivery so it would be a waste of
time and money. This also raises another issue, who is Squeezebox aimed
at; the audiophile with the high spec music system and possibly a little
money to throw around or people who want the music delivery but don't
have lots of money to waste. Can it do both and have two tiers. Simpler
cheaper hardware for most people and a range of higher end gear?

The Touch can be used by Audiophiles, and it probably needs an upgrade.
We don't have the Radio in Australia so I can't really comment but mono
output is a bit lame. A new version of the Boom would be handy but the
price needs to be lower. With the plethora of remote apps around
Logitech can use this to their advantage and concentrate on making the
hardware simpler, produce a Duet with better diagnostics perhaps.

On top of all this Logitech really needs to then get behind the product
and sell, sell, sell.

By the way, what is their business plan for Squeezebox? ;)


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garym
2012-07-27 21:41:11 UTC
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Gingernut63 wrote:
>
> On top of all this Logitech really needs to then get behind the product
> and sell, sell, sell.
>

yes, marketing seems not to know what to do. Folks come to my house and
are amazed with how my music system works so automatically and how I can
pass around the ipad on the deck and allow folks to simply find stuff to
play, etc. I explain how I have a server and that feeds all my SB
players and how I can control in many ways and the squeezebox "system"
and it is amazing how many say, "oh, like a SONOS...." As soon as I
start explaining why a squeezebox does stuff that would be impossible
with a SONOS, their eyes glaze over......

(and it is true that most of them just want something they turn on and
play pandora or some service....I'm a dinosaur with my server with
thousands of digitized albums, even among my same aged friends).


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Gingernut63
2012-07-27 22:16:00 UTC
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garym wrote:
> (...I'm a dinosaur with my server with thousands of digitized albums,
> even among my same aged friends).

Geez, that must make me a dinosaur too, and we all know what happened to
them.... they turned into birds! Sorry I'm getting too metaphysical.

aubuti wrote:
> I doubt anyone knows that, but you may find this speculation thread of
> interest:
> http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?95893-New-kit-next-year

Some good thoughts although not necessarily positive. thanks for the
link.


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garym
2012-07-27 22:25:34 UTC
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Gingernut63 wrote:
> Geez, that must make me a dinosaur too, and we all know what happened to
> them.... they turned into birds! Sorry I'm getting too metaphysical.
>

Anyone with more than 50 posts on this forum probably falls into the
"dinosaur" category when it comes to interest in both owning music (vs
streaming from a service of some kind) and the mechanism that we
actually use to listen to such music. ;-)


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aubuti
2012-07-27 22:00:35 UTC
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Gingernut63 wrote:
> By the way, what is their business plan for Squeezebox? ;)
I doubt anyone knows that, but you may find this speculation thread of
interest:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?95893-New-kit-next-year


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Corelli45
2012-07-27 22:02:54 UTC
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Can I down sample these tracks on JRiver? I have JRiver 17 but have not
used it for while.
Corelli


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MrC
2012-07-28 01:40:35 UTC
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Corelli45 wrote:
> Can I down sample these tracks on JRiver? I have JRiver 17 but have not
> used it for while.

I haven't read this thread, so I'm not sure I can answer directly. But
the JRiver folks will likely answer promptly on their forum:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact


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Corelli45
2012-07-28 08:13:07 UTC
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I'll check that put MrC. Thanks.


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DejanM
2012-07-28 21:12:21 UTC
Permalink
Well I didn't want to start discussion about whether Hi Res is better
than Red Book or not. I was only hoping that somebody may perhaps know
something about Logitech plans ...

I believe that SB Touch (as a latest Logitech product) is quite Ok
except in two areas: it doesn't support 24/192 (it can read it but it
does downstreaming to 24/96 - I have to try that proposed plug-in
though) and its processing power is rather limited which produces often
break downs when used with directly connected large USB Disc. So we need
also more CPU inside and better receiver.


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aubuti
2012-07-29 14:56:38 UTC
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DejanM wrote:
> So we need also more CPU inside and better receiver.
You keep talking about "we need." Who is this "we"?


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gharris999
2012-07-29 15:38:42 UTC
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aubuti wrote:
> You keep talking about "we need." Who is this "we"?
Well, me, for one. I had very high hopes for the SBTouch as a product
that could eliminate the need for a stand-alone server. The reality is
that it doesn't even come close to being able to support my library of
>60k tracks on a USB disk. Limited CPU and memory are the stumbling
blocks as far as I can tell. But, as folks are pointing out here, those
of us with large, locally stored collections probably represent an
evolutionary dead-end in this particular media ecology. So, I guess
that "we" be dinosaurs. And by implication, "we" probably shouldn't be
holding our breath waiting for Logitech to roll out a new product with
the kind of CPU and memory horsepower that caters to our particular
whims.


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aubuti
2012-07-29 18:02:01 UTC
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Well said, Gordon. I guess my hopes for the standalone server were never
very high, so the dodgy implementation in the current Touch wasn't as
disappointing for me. But I am disappointed that we may indeed have
reached a dead-end.


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sander
2012-07-29 19:39:24 UTC
Permalink
I prefer to think of it as mission accomplished. Investing in
Squeezeboxes was one of the best decisions I've made, and I hope to run
them in their current form (with a couple of small tweaks) for the rest
of my life.

When I think of potential improvements on the Squeeze tech, I really
can't think of anything obvious in terms of local playback which isn't
currently possible for my needs. And looking at what passes for
innovation these days future developments will probably be connecting to
social networks or more halfhearted app store nonsense. There's an
obvious cloud piece that could be added ala Match and connecting to your
home library, but I don't think they really have the resources for
that.

My biggest disappointments of the past couple of years are that plugin
development has mostly stopped, the scanning post-7.6 is still pretty
crappy, and the current Squeezeplay devices aren't as flexible as the
earlier devices.

I hope we can make a soft landing and Logitech doesn't move a direction
which would alienate those of us who run older versions of their
software and hardware, but who can say.


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mlsstl
2012-07-29 20:59:48 UTC
Permalink
sander wrote:
> I hope we can make a soft landing and Logitech doesn't move a direction
> which would alienate those of us who run older versions of their
> software and hardware, but who can say.
I'd be sad if my Squeezeboxes broke and they weren't making them
anymore, but that has happened at some point to the vast majority of
products ever made. I can't buy new parts for my old Hobart-made version
of my Kitchenaid mixer nor get new blades for my reel mower. The same
applies to many other older items in my household.

However, the neat thing is that, if I've bothered to back up my music
collection, it exists completely independent of the player I use. I
believe one can have a high level of confidence that there will always
be a way to play my music. I might miss the way the Touch or SB3 did
things, but I won't be left hanging with a big collection and no way to
listen to it.

I hope Logitech sticks with the Squeezebox line and continues to improve
it, but there are certainly far worse things that could happen if they
move in a different direction.


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Gingernut63
2012-07-29 21:49:18 UTC
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mlsstl wrote:
> I'd be sad if my Squeezeboxes broke and they weren't making them
> anymore, but that has happened at some point to the vast majority of
> products ever made....
> I hope Logitech sticks with the Squeezebox line and continues to improve
> it, but there are certainly far worse things that could happen if they
> move in a different direction.

While ever the hardware lasts and the LMS code works and is supported by
new operating systems then we can still use the system, which is great.
Alas some people have invested a lot of money in this system over the
years and you would like to think that it will be supported for sometime
into the future. As we know there has been a huge paradigm shift over
the last decade or so. Many years ago you could buy Hi-Fi equipment and
it would last for years (with the odd repair) and it would still play
your music. Now processors and software have turned the world upside
down.

Computer technology advances at a rapid pace, making devices obsolete
virtually overnight; can we now invest a lot of money in computer Hi-Fi
technology that has the potential to be superseded in a relatively short
lifetime? I'm not saying we should be Hi-Fi Luddites, I personally love
the technological improvements, but maybe we need to rethink how we
interface music with our lives. For me streaming music is not the
answer, however a lot people are going this way. My next investment will
need to be well thought through.


mlsstl wrote:
> However, the neat thing is that, if I've bothered to back up my music
> collection, it exists completely independent of the player I use. I
> believe one can have a high level of confidence that there will always
> be a way to play my music. I might miss the way the Touch or SB3 did
> things, but I won't be left hanging with a big collection and no way to
> listen to it.

Very true. In respect of the music I believe I have future proofed
myself as much as possible.

Interesting times.


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mlsstl
2012-07-29 23:09:03 UTC
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Gingernut63 wrote:
> Alas some people have invested a lot of money in this system over the
> years.
Not sure where you're coming from with the "invested a lot of money in
this system" comment. Perhaps those who purchased a Transporter have
more of a claim along these lines, but my Touch is the least expensive
component in my stereo by a good margin. If the player broke tomorrow
and proved irreplaceable, I've still got a lot of options. I might have
to install a different program on my server and re-index things, but how
hard is that? I don't find it falls into anything much more than the
annoyance category.

In fact, if I had multiple players and only one broke and couldn't be
replaced, I could even replace just the one player, install its program
and still run LMS for the remaining Squeezeboxes. About the only thing
I'd lose would be sync capability.

And, if my players are working but Logitech no longer supports LMS, it
is open source and there is little doubt that someone will update it as
necessary. Even then, most of the OSs out there are pretty good about
maintaining backward compatibility.

Again, I hope Logitech keeps steaming along with the Squeezebox players.
I think they are a great option for a music source. But, if they don't,
I know I have options.


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Gingernut63
2012-07-29 23:57:56 UTC
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mlsstl wrote:
> Not sure where you're coming from with the "invested a lot of money in
> this system" comment. Perhaps those who purchased a Transporter have
> more of a claim along these lines, but my Touch is the least expensive
> component in my stereo by a good margin.

I'm not talking about one product. There are many people on this forum
who have multiple Squeezebox products and in some instances multiple
installations, and the products are not cheap, certainly not where I
come from (Australia).

mlsstl wrote:
> And, if my players are working but Logitech no longer supports LMS, it
> is open source and there is little doubt that someone will update it as
> necessary. Even then, most of the OSs out there are pretty good about
> maintaining backward compatibility.

Over the years I've seen many non supported programs disappear because
they won't run on the latest OS. Most certainly we have enthusiasts who
could update the software if Logitech pulls the pin, but can that be
relied upon and how long will it last? I would prefer official support,
but admittedly I'll take whatever comes along.


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mlsstl
2012-07-30 00:36:57 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the info. I'm not interested in debating, but just trying to
add some perspective. Anytime anyone buys technology there is a risk of
ending up on the out. A lot of people were sure the Betamax video format
was going to win against VHS, but it didn't. Both electric and steam
powered cars were hot commodities a hundred years ago. They lost
big-time to the gas engine. Forty years ago a lot of people jumped on
the quadraphonic bandwagon only to have the wheels on that buggy fall
off.

I was just pointing out that the Squeezebox user is in a better position
than most in this regard. Our music collection isn't rendered useless if
the product disappears and our amps and speakers will still do what
they've always done with a new source.

Anyone want to buy a Hayes 1200 baud modem? I paid only $700 for it
new!

;-)


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Gingernut63
2012-07-30 01:16:24 UTC
Permalink
mlsstl wrote:
> Anyone want to buy a Hayes 1200 baud modem? I paid only $700 for it
> new!
> ;-)

Forums are about discussions, it's good to communicate with other music
dinosaurs. Let's hope the asteroid doesn't hit soon!

I'll trade you my 1998 HP 4X CD burner only $450 (AUS) brand new. I'll
also throw in a blank CD. ;)


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aspendl828
2012-07-30 12:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Just a thought, guys, but...

IF you had the bandwidth into your home and IF Spotify (for example)
streamed 24/96 FLAC would you ever buy another CD (rare old stuff
excepted, of course)?

Seems to me the subscription / on demand model is the future. The only
way us 'dinosaurs' can have an issue with that is on sound quality
grounds.

I love my SB+ and Boom but if I were Logitech I might be more interested
in what I see as an inevitable move to the Spotify model. There is no
doubt that broadband bandwidth will be able to cope quite soon, if not
already. My bigger concern is that those of us wanting a truly lossless
format to be streamed will be swamped by the MP3 / AAC users and we will
either have to compromise (not an audiophile charachteristic) or still
with the disc based format - at least for acquision of the music.


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Mnyb
2012-07-30 15:06:15 UTC
Permalink
aspendl828 wrote:
> Just a thought, guys, but...
>
> IF you had the bandwidth into your home and IF Spotify (for example)
> streamed 24/96 FLAC would you ever buy another CD (rare old stuff
> excepted, of course)?
>
> Seems to me the subscription / on demand model is the future. The only
> way us 'dinosaurs' can have an issue with that is on sound quality
> grounds.
>
> I love my SB+ and Boom but if I were Logitech I might be more interested
> in what I see as an inevitable move to the Spotify model. There is no
> doubt that broadband bandwidth will be able to cope quite soon, if not
> already. My bigger concern is that those of us wanting a truly lossless
> format to be streamed will be swamped by the MP3 / AAC users and we will
> either have to compromise (not an audiophile charachteristic) or still
> with the disc based format - at least for acquision of the music.

No " renting " content for me thanks . I prefer drm and watermark free
lossles files I can do whatever I want with , will spotify exist in 20
years ? Can I " rent " the content I want to in a disneyfied world ?
Content will not be in the hand of the users in the future.

http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/exhibitionist/2012/07/cory_doctorow_computer_war_longnow.php


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garym
2012-07-30 15:15:22 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb wrote:
> No " renting " content for me thanks . I prefer drm and watermark free
> lossles files I can do whatever I want with , will spotify exist in 20
> years ? Can I " rent " the content I want to in a disneyfied world ?
> Content will not be in the hand of the users in the future.
>
> http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html
>
> http://blogs.sfweekly.com/exhibitionist/2012/07/cory_doctorow_computer_war_longnow.php

I agree with mnyb on this. I love using MOG to listen to stuff I don't
own, but if I really like it, I buy it. I want to own the music. And I
have lots of things that don't seem to show up in any of the music
services as well. I do think the future for the average music
listener is streaming/renting. But for me, I'll own/control my own
copies. But in about 20-25 years, I'll be drooling over my oatmeal at a
nursing home listening to whatever crap is playing in the rec room...
;-)


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aspendl828
2012-07-31 09:52:10 UTC
Permalink
I agree with you both. I also want to own the music. The problem is I
struggle to justify that position other than on sound quality grounds.
If I could load all my FLAC files into the cloud and stream them in all
their pristine quality to whatever player I wanted wherever and whenever
I wanted then I suspect that is what I would do. I might even pay £10 a
month for the ability to do it.

No costly servers to keep powered up. No need to do back ups (OK, fair
enough, no way am I trusting a 'cloud' provider to guarantee not to lose
my stuff) or worry about hard drive failures.

See where I'm going?

What is the difference between that and 'renting'? When I sit and select
an album on my SB+ do I care which NAS it is coming from? So equally I
wouldn't care if it came from Cloud Storage. Where is the line then that
would stop me (and you guys) wanting a Lossless Spotify?

IF Spotify or similar were lossless and had 'enough' content depth how
do I justify my strange need to 'own' the music? Even though I know I
need to own it, I don't really understand why.,,,,,

Cheers

Andrew


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Mnyb
2012-07-31 10:11:52 UTC
Permalink
aspendl828 wrote:
> I agree with you both. I also want to own the music. The problem is I
> struggle to justify that position other than on sound quality grounds.
> If I could load all my FLAC files into the cloud and stream them in all
> their pristine quality to whatever player I wanted wherever and whenever
> I wanted then I suspect that is what I would do. I might even pay £10 a
> month for the ability to do it.
>
> No costly servers to keep powered up. No need to do back ups (OK, fair
> enough, no way am I trusting a 'cloud' provider to guarantee not to lose
> my stuff) or worry about hard drive failures.
>
> See where I'm going?
>
> What is the difference between that and 'renting'? When I sit and select
> an album on my SB+ do I care which NAS it is coming from? So equally I
> wouldn't care if it came from Cloud Storage. Where is the line then that
> would stop me (and you guys) wanting a Lossless Spotify?
>
> IF Spotify or similar were lossless and had 'enough' content depth how
> do I justify my strange need to 'own' the music? Even though I know I
> need to own it, I don't really understand why.,,,,,
>
> Cheers
>
> Andrew

.. Because you own the actual file it could be a family heirloom and
transcoded to new lossles formats forever for generations :)
No time limit , I think this is an aspect that the music industry don't
like, kiddie could just copy mom and dad's collection for a starter kit
in music !
And the also want to prolong the copyright times so that it last longer
before getting into public domain .
I would like to see the opposite the artist ( and record companies )
from the 60's and 70's have already got everything they ever expected
out of their content .

If [ insert online service ] fold tomorrow , your " collection" and
carefully crafted playlist are gone .

And keeping stuff online means some privacy invasion , and it probably
will get worse . Can you store whatever you want ? Is there or will
there ever be a cloud service that just treats your storage as an
encrypted blob of data that only you can access ?

And if the content is in the cloud it will get "managed" and censored in
some fashion, basically someone else is in controll .

I have to worry more than Gary as I think my porridge drooling days are
one or two decades further in th future ;-)
( just a guess as Gary seem to have been on concerts venues when I was
on my first set of teeths ).


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garym
2012-07-31 11:26:45 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb wrote:
> ontroll .
>
> I have to worry more than Gary as I think my porridge drooling days are
> one or two decades further in th future ;-)
> ( just a guess as Gary seem to have been on concerts venues when I was
> on my first set of teeths ).

definitely....as a teenager I saw concerts by Jimi Hendrix and Janis
Joplin, and they were dead by 1970. Regarding owning. Hard to say why.
I don't feel the need to own many DVDs and prefer netflix (renting). I
do like owning my home, my cars, etc. Maybe I'm just used to owning
music vs renting it. I don't believe that any of these music services
will last more than a decade. Of course there will be replacements for
these services, but even with this, there are always some issues that
pop up in the transition.

The ironic thing is that this thread has posts concerned with whether SB
products will be available in the future. I would be *more* worried as
to whether my "rented" cloud music would be available in the future in
the format, manner, etc. that I want. This said, I have no doubt that
millions of songs will be available in some format or another in the
cloud forever more. It's the few hundred out of those million that is
not available that would bother me. Even today, there are albums not
available on CD that I'd like to have (well, needle drops have been OK),
there are books I want to read that are currently out of print and only
available at 50 times the cost on ebay, etc.


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Gingernut63
2012-07-31 11:59:17 UTC
Permalink
garym wrote:
> definitely....as a teenager I saw concerts by Jimi Hendrix and Janis
> Joplin, and they were dead by 1970. Regarding owning. Hard to say why.
> I don't feel the need to own many DVDs and prefer netflix (renting). I
> do like owning my home, my cars, etc. Maybe I'm just used to owning
> music vs renting it. I don't believe that any of these music services
> will last more than a decade. Of course there will be replacements for
> these services, but even with this, there are always some issues that
> pop up in the transition.
>
> The ironic thing is that this thread has posts concerned with whether SB
> products will be available in the future. I would be *more* worried as
> to whether my "rented" cloud music would be available in the future in
> the format, manner, etc. that I want. This said, I have no doubt that
> millions of songs will be available in some format or another in the
> cloud forever more. It's the few hundred out of those million that is
> not available that would bother me. Even today, there are albums not
> available on CD that I'd like to have (well, needle drops have been OK),
> there are books I want to read that are currently out of print and only
> available at 50 times the cost on ebay, etc.

One other issue that seems to be missed is that not all peoples have
access to the streaming services that you guys are talking about. I
don't think we have music streaming services at the moment in Australia
and if we do it maybe in the embryonic stage.

The other advantage with having your own collection is the versatility
of how and where you listen to it. The comfort of your home, the
portable player, the car, and in Australia, out the back of woop woop
(Aussie term - the back of no ware) where there is no internet
connection. The internet is a wonderful thing but it isn't available
everywhere just yet, if ever.

I'm keeping the collection, I don't think I can rely on "rented" music
or place my collection in the "Cloud" and suffer some kind of meltdown
if I couldn't access music when required. Better to keep ones sanity
intact.


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garym
2012-07-31 12:04:20 UTC
Permalink
Gingernut63 wrote:
> One other issue that seems to be missed is that not all peoples have
> access to the streaming services that you guys are talking about. I
> don't think we have music streaming services at the moment in Australia
> and if we do it maybe in the embryonic stage.
>
> The other advantage with having your own collection is the versatility
> of how and where you listen to it. The comfort of your home, the
> portable player, the car, and in Australia, out the back of woop woop
> (Aussie term - the back of no ware) where there is no internet
> connection. The internet is a wonderful thing but it isn't available
> everywhere just yet, if ever.
>
> I'm keeping the collection, I don't think I can rely on "rented" music
> or place my collection in the "Cloud" and suffer some kind of meltdown
> if I couldn't access music when required. Better to keep ones sanity
> intact.

both excellent points. p.s. I think MOG has started up in Australia and
it works well with squeezeboxes (add in myapps at mysb.com). And the
cheap paid version (4.99 in the US) is enough to make it work on your
SBs. I moved from Spotify to MOG. Seems to be same selection, but works
better with SBs with less hassle.


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Gingernut63
2012-07-31 12:15:24 UTC
Permalink
garym wrote:
> both excellent points. p.s. I think MOG has started up in Australia and
> it works well with squeezeboxes (add in myapps at mysb.com). And the
> cheap paid version (4.99 in the US) is enough to make it work on your
> SBs. I moved from Spotify to MOG. Seems to be same selection, but works
> better with SBs with less hassle.

Cheers, I'll check it out. I'm interested to see what all the hype is
about.


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garym
2012-07-31 12:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Gingernut63 wrote:
> Cheers, I'll check it out. I'm interested to see what all the hype is
> about.

I find it very useful for checking out new music (new to me...could be
jazz albums from the 1950s).


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Mnyb
2012-07-31 12:56:10 UTC
Permalink
garym wrote:
>
> The ironic thing is that this thread has posts concerned with whether SB
> products will be available in the future. I would be *more* worried as
> to whether my "rented" cloud music would be available in the future in
> the format, manner, etc. that I want. This said, I have no doubt that
> millions of songs will be available in some format or another in the
> cloud forever more. It's the few hundred out of those million that is
> not available that would bother me. Even today, there are albums not
> available on CD that I'd like to have (well, needle drops have been OK),
> there are books I want to read that are currently out of print and only
> available at 50 times the cost on ebay, etc.

That is worrying , so much content get lost over time .
Ironically it would not cost a fortune to fix , digitising is easy
especially on the cheap with not over much post processing ( avoid the
LP tweaked master ,get something earlier if possible ) and yield a much
better result than the horrible " remaster " process that just give you
overcompressed loud version for the money .

Sell these on the net as flac downloads after a surprisingly small
number of sales you have fincanded the work for a skilled engineer to
transfer the tape, no CD's to press or anything just scan the original
covers too ?

Absolutely everything * could * be aviable and backups ? Heck if say
1000 person downloads it ,it will be there for a very long time .

That's another thing with distributed personal files ,some will never go
away there are millions of copies.


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mlsstl
2012-07-31 14:30:49 UTC
Permalink
There are definitely potential issues in storing one's music on "the
cloud" or depending on it as your music source. There are plenty of
examples of problems in related areas. One of the most famous is the
2009 episode when Amazon went into the Kindle Readers of customers who
had already bought Orwell's "1984" novel and deleted it. They later
apologized, but there was no small amount of irony in that move.

This past February, 5,000 ebooks became unavailable on Amazon due to a
dispute with the publisher.

Music availability comes and goes at the whim of copyright holders. I
remember about 10 years ago that my wife, a Jimmie Spheeris fan, tried
to replace one of her old LPs with a CD and found it unavailable. Used
copies were over $100. It seems Sony pulled the distribution rights from
Rain Records. That made it illegal to sell new copies. Had this music
been on a cloud service, it would have simply disappeared.

The availability of movies similarly depends on the copyright holders.
Try finding a quality copy of Noel Coward's "Blithe Spirit" in the US
right now. (The UK version is wonderfully restored while the US version
looks like it was made from a worn out 6 hour VHS tape.)

A related concern is the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) which
gives amazing authority for copyright holders to go searching for
violations. Subpoenas to ISPs for user info are now commonplace. (I have
a friend who was recently notified by his internet service that they had
turned his name over to a plaintiff's law firm for allegedly downloading
a movie from a bit torrent site. Interestingly, he does not own a TV and
I can personally attest to his computer cluelessness.)

I do not find it inconceivable that some of the aggressive copyright
holders will decide they are entitled to prowl through collections
uploaded to the cloud in search of "violators" and then demand you prove
your possession of same is legal. That could entail a lot of work and
possibly even significant expense if one has to hire a lawyer.

In short, I'm just not very trusting of the cloud to look out for my
best interests.


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aspendl828
2012-07-31 15:17:57 UTC
Permalink
I pretty much agree with all the points in favour of a self managed
local collection of owned files.

My concern is that Logitech might sense the move to renting / streaming
from third parties and any future product line may focus more on that
source of music with the likely compromise of a lossy format at the
expense of functionality that most on this forum (certainly in this
thread) would prefer.

Let's hope I'm wrong!


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garym
2012-07-31 15:24:53 UTC
Permalink
aspendl828 wrote:
> I pretty much agree with all the points in favour of a self managed
> local collection of owned files.
>
> My concern is that Logitech might sense the move to renting / streaming
> from third parties and any future product line may focus more on that
> source of music with the likely compromise of a lossy format at the
> expense of functionality that most on this forum (certainly in this
> thread) would prefer.
>
> Let's hope I'm wrong!

Although I'm as guilty as the next person on this, it is actually silly
to concern ourselves over these "what ifs" with regard to Squeezebox (or
other technology for that matter). I was an active music
collector/listener in the days before CDs. If we had had similar
internet forums back then, think of what the threads might have looked
like, with folks worried over the ability of vinyl manufacturers to
continue making our audiophile 1/2 speed records, turntable
manufacturers, whether CDs would still work in the future because they
might be replaced by something else, etc. etc. All I'm actually sure of
is that the future will be different from today with regard to how we
store, access, and play our music. But most likely it will be better.
And whether it will be Squeezeboxes or some yet-to-be-heard-of maker of
some yet-to-be-discovered product is something no one can predict.

I woudn't want to return to my 1971 audio setup. And I suspect in 2022,
I wouldn't want to return to my 2012 setup.


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mlsstl
2012-07-31 16:11:13 UTC
Permalink
garym wrote:
> ...it is actually silly to concern ourselves over these "what ifs" with
> regard to Squeezebox (or other technology for that matter).

Guess we're each entitled to our own perspective, but the copyright
issue isn't a "what if" situation.

Just Google "Righthaven", or check out the RIAA lawsuits that have been
going on for over 10 years. More recently, the US Copyright Group has
filed over 50,000 lawsuits against individuals for movie copyright
infringement. TV channels routinely disappear from cable and satellite
systems as the program owners and conduit providers fight over contract
details. Sometimes they come back, sometimes they don't.

The internet radio system has already had stations come and go thanks to
copyright cost issues. Radio copyright fights go way back. ASCAP tried
to double fees in 1941 and the stations called their bluff. That's why
BMI was started (Broadcast Music Inc) as radio stations looked for
alternate material.

There is just too much money involved for the copyright holders to
ignore the cloud trend. I like internet radio and it doesn't bother me
too much one way or another as to what they play and when, but trusting
faceless corporations with my own collection and hoping they play nice
is a different matter.


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garym
2012-07-31 18:26:09 UTC
Permalink
mlsstl wrote:
> I like internet radio and it doesn't bother me too much one way or
> another as to what they play and when, but trusting faceless
> corporations with my own collection and hoping they play nice is a
> different matter.

and couldn't agree more, as this is why I want my own copies and
multiple backups of everything I own.


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garym
2012-07-30 12:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Gingernut63 wrote:
> Forums are about discussions, it's good to communicate with other music
> dinosaurs. Let's hope the asteroid doesn't hit soon!
>
> I'll trade you my 1998 HP 4X CD burner only $450 (AUS) brand new. I'll
> also throw in a blank CD. ;)

Hey, what about my 8-Track RECORDER from the early 70s....

And I'm one of the folks that could be said to have an 'investment' in
SB stuff (a Transporter, 2 radios, 2 booms, 2 Touches, a SB3, two
CONTROLLERS, and two extra Touches and one extra Radio still in box as
backups (all bought when on good sale). And I have 3 VBAs across two
different locations (6TB, 4TB, and 3TB). That said, my investment in all
this is considerably less than my investment in the actual music (CDs).
Ultimately it would be a pain to move to a new system, but I'd
certainly do it if it became necessary. Currently, I see nothing that
actually does what my current system does (at any price). Sonos can't
handle a library my size or 24/96. Other things don't have ability to
sync, other things can do a lot, but don't have ability to play siriusXM
or certain music services (and my wife likes the siriusXM, etc.).

This is what frustrates me the most. SB stuff is actually the best on
the market AT ANY PRICE but somehow the marketing of all this has failed
miserably.


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Atlantic
2012-07-29 23:00:54 UTC
Permalink
mlsstl wrote:
> However, the neat thing is that, if I've bothered to back up my music
> collection, it exists completely independent of the player I use. I
> believe one can have a high level of confidence that there will always
> be a way to play my music. [...] I won't be left hanging with a big
> collection and no way to listen to it.
>


Not so sure. I've done that, backed the music up, etc. But, a lot of
mine is .ogg - because SB plays ogg - but most other systems I've
checked don't. I can see a time coming when those other systems on the
market won't play flac, either, which is another coding I've commonly
used. Fair enough, if there's no 'demand', in the future, which would
enable the cost of that option to be recovered from hardware
purchasers.

But this does concern me - slightly - if the SB hardware lines were to
close.

Of course, everything could be transcoded to different formats - though
retaining the tags is a bit trickier and would be an issue on a large
collection - but of more concern is that transcoding lossy formats would
result in further degradation.

I too have high confidence - but only as long as the hardware lasts.
What is the asset life of SB kit? Maybe 10-12 years, for the box, but
slightly less - judging by some fairly regularly-occurring posts - for
the power-pack.

I don't think we're there, yet, though. Let's see what develops.

regards, Atlantic


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Andy Hawkins
2012-07-31 10:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

In article <Atlantic.5ghl1b-NUepA2SMhDQqspMVqqL2D+4xXEVPTSb/***@public.gmane.org>,
Atlantic<Atlantic.5ghl1b-NUepA2SMhDQqspMVqqL2D+4xXEVPTSb/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Of course, everything could be transcoded to different formats - though
> retaining the tags is a bit trickier and would be an issue on a large
> collection - but of more concern is that transcoding lossy formats would
> result in further degradation.

That's why all my 'source' content is in FLAC. I can transcode that to my
hearts content without any loss in quality. If support for FLAC looks like
it's going to disappear in the future, I just need to make sure I am able to
transcode to nuFLAC and again all will be well.

Andy
garym
2012-07-31 16:26:42 UTC
Permalink
Sorry. Agree. The silly part refers only to speculation (what if) on
what sort of players Logitech may or may not have in the future.


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Corelli45
2012-07-28 21:51:12 UTC
Permalink
The EDO plug in provides 24/192 from all outputs. There is much advice
re the connection of a USB hard drive but you could use a Nas such as
Vortebox etc.
Corelli


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