Discussion:
Why so many rude comments?
(too old to reply)
Goodsounds
2009-10-02 21:49:01 UTC
Permalink
The company is releasing new hardware and software and making lots of
changes. Without addressing whether that has or hasn't been well managed
lately, I don't get why so many people think it's ok to have a hissy fit
to display their unhappiness.

Do any of you work with customers? If so, you realize it is the ones
who are polite and considerate that people make an extra effort for. You
just want to blow off steam? This isn't the right place to do that.
The company's employees are working hard to get things right, it isn't
reasonable to be unfairly critical or impolite to them.

Maybe a new forum is needed - for comments from teenagers with out of
balance hormones, and older people who act in a similar way.

If you want help or want to report a problem, why not do so politely?
Are you unhappy and you want people to know about it? Fine, but why not
be a bit more considerate of others when you express your views.

Just to get things off on a better footing, I'll say to the company's
people - Way to go, a lot of us really appreciate what you do.


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Slackerini
2009-10-02 22:35:08 UTC
Permalink
While I agree that the excessive whinging and getting into name calling
is silly, people have a right to be upset and unhappy.

I work with customers everyday and also have the pleasure of dealing
with less-than-pleasant customers when my work isn't up to snuff. That
is life.

However, It seems to me that the software was clearly rushed out the
door to hit a corporate deadline. That said, I too appreciate
everyone--slim employees and the developers on this forum--for all their
contributions in sorting out the bugs.

I've been a Slim customer for 4-years and my system has been running
24/7 until now. I made the mistake of rushing to upgrade--something I
haven't historically done and am suffering the consequences. I can't
even seem to find the recommended system requirement for 7.4 to check if
part of my problem is that my server is underpowered.

I think part of the struggle that Slim->Logitech is going through is
that their target market has gone from a very tech-saavy, DYI/hobbyist
community that was tolerant of hiccups in the development process and
willing to spend hours tinkering with the product/software, to a broader
consumer-oriented product that customers expect to work out of the box,
without hours of tinkering or learning how to write code or posting
logfiles.


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pablolie
2009-10-02 22:44:11 UTC
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I for one have not made a single rude comment. If openly stating that
there are major issues is šrudeš in the eyes of the unconditional SB
groupies, hey, I can live with that. My sig shows my support for SB
products with the one thing that matters most - my checkbook. 3 Booms, 1
Duet, 3 SB3s and a Radio on order, possibly a Touch. I am not a bad
customer.

But I speak up when things donŽt work out that well, and furthermore
think it is my obligation to a common cause: to make this a better
product for us, and adopted by many more.


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regalma1
2009-10-02 23:05:48 UTC
Permalink
I work in product development and have done customer support. Our
products are far more complex and we reach far further with each new
model, but we can't bring out stuff full of obvious bugs as 7.4 appears
to be. Here they have even changed their hardware and their new FW is
causing all sorts crashes. I mean how can you produce FW for a very
mature piece of hardware that doesn't even do that much and not catch
things cause even routine operations to fail. Looks like they don't have
a formal SW QA process.

Maybe the difference is that they are selling to the public, while we
sell to professionals. And frankly, since the invention of the personal
computer we consumers have come expect things not to work, and to get
lousy support.

The computer industry exploits that to the max. I have never dealt with
an industry that has such lame support and ships such obviously flawed
products, well except maybe GM in the '70's. But look where that led.


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arztde
2009-10-03 00:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Just to stop it. A good solution can be reactivate the old
squeezenetwork and stop the automatic firmwareupdate to 7.4. Let the
customors of Logitech decide, when they like to change to 7.4. A lot
have stable running systems.

Just my 2 cents.


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iPhone
2009-10-03 01:56:30 UTC
Permalink
I think a few people are not thinking before they leap.

One does not HAVE to upgrade to SBS 7.4, unless one buys a Radio. SBS
7.4 IS REQUIRED for Radio.

Having said that, SBS 7.4 HAD to be released as production or Radios
could not be released and sold. The change is then due to Radio, so if
one doesn't have one don't upgrade unless one wants to take advantage of
the Controller updates that are included in SBS 7.4 also.

And I will end with I personally haven't had any issues upgrading to
SBS 7.4 but that doesn't mean that others might have to make an
adjustment or two. I have been using the Beta for what seems like
forever, the changes seem more subtle to me.


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arztde
2009-10-03 07:46:55 UTC
Permalink
iPhone;465527 Wrote:
> I think a few people are not thinking before they leap.
>
> One does not HAVE to upgrade to SBS 7.4, unless one buys a Radio. SBS
> 7.4 IS REQUIRED for Radio.
>
>

Why this is not been told in the announcements very clear in any
languages in a understandable way. Its not a shame to have not english
as mother language.

If i look through the resources the SB3 is no more listed inside the
FAQ section of the Logitech resourses. I could browse them from the old
Squeezecenter Help link directly.

Anyways after i did have damaged my SB3 (3month old) i packed it to
send to logitech for repair. The display stay black. 7.3 is working very
stable. nothing to concern. Also no problem with the Controler of my
Duet. With 7.4 Logitech go the risk to loose a lot of reputation. If
they force in this way the 7.4. With the Duet it happen the same this
reputation lost in past. No this?
In regular i use the hardware together with PDA Slimcontrol.
The Duet controler is only more for me just for testing. I think for
the moment to force 7.4 as major release and stable is not the best way.
Christmass is time enough to make it ready to be stable.
Is it realy necessary to make 90 % of happy customers NOW to beta
testers for the SB Radio. My idea was to buy one at christmass to put it
inside a stable solution without major bugs. There is no need to make me
as a beta tester until christmass. The best way to demonstrate somehow
stability is to force the developement of the software players. It was
allways my argument in front of friends to decide to buy the hardware
after intensive testing with the software players.
The way is than to buy one SB Modell and use intermediate the software
player as intermediate solution for Multiroom until they buy the next SB
Modell.


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bluegaspode
2009-10-03 09:07:22 UTC
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iPhone;465527 Wrote:
> One does not HAVE to upgrade to SBS 7.4, unless one buys a Radio. SBS
> 7.4 IS REQUIRED for Radio.

While this might be true in a technical sense it is not true in the
common world. I guess people that have a setup which allows running on
7.3. maybe even didn't realize (apart from the later logitech-mail) that
there was a 7.4.

All other people that come here (some properly complaining and also
many using the wrong words) were 'forced' to an update.
- their controller asked them to do so and if they didn't it asked them
later again and they didn't know why
- their boom just upgraded automatically when they surfed to a certain
menu
- ...

I don't want to start a discussion now what 'forced' means, but my
interpretation goes like 'as a normal user who doesn't surf the forums
all the time I had no real chance to opt out when my devices started to
develop their own lives. I didn't even know the correct answer, when the
controller surprised me with a question I didn't understand out of the
blue'.

I hope that logitech will take the chance to make a retrospective of
the current update and will analyse what could be done better (and I'm
sure they will - noone wants unhappy customers).
Maybe they are even satisfied ... I mean - in their statistics they see
exactly how many people upgraded - say >10.000 and how many people turn
up in support and forums (say 100). This would be 'just' 1% problematic
cases ?
Of course I don't know the real numbers, but at what number would we
speak of a successfull update (given that 0% is not realistic).

Having said this I want to agree to the first poster. Taking the wrong
language doesn't really help in the current situation.
Logitech for sure won't take back the changes (why should they?)
because this would make even more trouble. The system wasn't designed to
support old and new squeezenetwork in parallel so this currently is just
not an option.


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bluegaspode

One SB-Duet+Receiver. Server running on Linkstation NAS (LS-CHL).
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toby10
2009-10-03 11:22:51 UTC
Permalink
All good comments, IMHO.

I think the problem is compounded by attempting three different issues
at the same time:
- upgrading SN to MySB
- upgrading SC7.3 to SBS7.4
- new product introduction of the Radio (requiring the first two)

In a perfect world these should have been done in steps, spreading out
the three step integration over (say) 30 days between each step. But
then I and most of the SB player users are not programmers so we'll
never understand the reasons why this couldn't be done in such a three
step manner. Then add in the corporate big cheeses standing over them
with a baseball bat! :)

Obviously MySB.com and SBS7.4 work with legacy hardware, and SC7.3
works with MySB, all with some hicups of course. So then the question
is "why not a three step integration?". I'd guess it was either planned
as a all-at-once process (not my choice as an amateur looking in from
outside), or the multi-step approach plan got trampled on due to
problems and deadlines. Who knows.


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Mnyb
2009-10-03 11:36:22 UTC
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Have not anyone thought that the obvious leaks regarding the new
products have rushed the schedule ?


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kappclark
2009-10-03 19:34:15 UTC
Permalink
I am THRILLED with this technology, and have seen no plms since the
magic upgrade (which appeared automatically on the duet
controller)...just can't wait for the readynas connection to come out of
Beta..

For now, Internet radio is an entirely new experience, and this has
been worth every penny !

I have nothing to complain about (and I haven't played a cd at home in
weeks !)


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pablolie
2009-10-03 17:04:43 UTC
Permalink
bluegaspode;465641 Wrote:
> .. in their statistics they see exactly how many people upgraded - say
> >10.000 and how many people turn up in support and forums (say 100).
> This would be 'just' 1% problematic cases ?...

That would not include the people who don't know what to do about all
this, put their product in a box in their garage and regard it as a
failed experiment.

I think it's only the more sophisticated users that get to this forum.
The next group would try to use phone support. The largest group will
just toss a gadget that doesn't work the way they expect.


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pablolie

...pablo
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sg2
2009-10-03 17:28:36 UTC
Permalink
"Why so many rude comments?"

Believe it or not, after going through unimaginable hassle to get it
running, every and each single update that came later broke my Duet
setup.

I will be staying away from 7.4, judging by the feedback. I can live
with the 7.3 bugs, even though I'd rather not.

Regards,
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Stéphane


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iPhone
2009-10-04 07:10:49 UTC
Permalink
sg2;465884 Wrote:
> "Why so many rude comments?"
>
> Believe it or not, after going through unimaginable hassle to get it
> running, every and each single update that came later broke my Duet
> setup.
>
> I will be staying away from 7.4, judging by the feedback. I can live
> with the 7.3 bugs, even though I'd rather not.
>
> Regards,
> --
> Stéphane

That's just it. If ones setup is simple and one can handle a new
download of SBS then answer yes to update now on ones Controller, I
think one is much better off with SBS 7.4. And if its not ones cup of
tea, roll back to SC 7.3.3.

I can guarantee for every one person that posts they have an issue or
problem with SBS 7.4 that there are hundreds if not thousands that don't
have ANY problems and don't post. Negative comments are immediate on the
Forum while praise, neutral, and no problems comments tend to lag big
time. As in, not problems here so nothing to report or worth reporting.


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Living Room:
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kmr
2009-10-04 19:35:57 UTC
Permalink
I have a simple system: SB3 (SD branded), iMac running MacOS 10.5.x.
Absolutely smooth, including mySB integration. I really like the new
preference pane for the server. I feel for the folks that have had
problems, but I strongly suspect they are a small minority (recognizing
though that it's still a problem).


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tedfroop
2009-10-05 14:19:50 UTC
Permalink
There are probably thousands of us who had no problem with the update.
As I see it most of the issues are already being dealt with by the
developers.

There is one thing in all this that the software developers have no
control over - your hardware, software, and your network. The whole
PC-Apple thing is exactly the same as well. If we all ran Squeezebox
Server on a set standard piece of hardware with a set standard OS with a
set standard network there would be few problems.

We don't though and any problems with either the computer, os, or
network exposed by the new software is a chance to complain. Anything
that does not work the way I want it to - complain! Blunder ahead with
a system that was not stable in the first place and make it more
unstable with new software - complain!


Carefully make sure everything is working right, copy your preferences,
uninstall (and restart if you have Windows) and install the update, make
sure everything is ok and your plugins are all compatible and updated,
move your prefs over, check it all again and everything works and then
you don't need to complain.

Then you can ignore the rude people until they figure out thats not the
way to get help around here.


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ghostrider
2009-10-05 16:35:34 UTC
Permalink
tedfroop;467091 Wrote:
> There are probably thousands of us who had no problem with the update.
> As I see it most of the issues are already being dealt with by the
> developers.
>
> There is one thing in all this that the software developers have no
> control over - your hardware, software, and your network. The whole
> PC-Apple thing is exactly the same as well. If we all ran Squeezebox
> Server on a set standard piece of hardware with a set standard OS with a
> set standard network there would be few problems.
>
> We don't though and any problems with either the computer, os, or
> network exposed by the new software is a chance to complain. Anything
> that does not work the way I want it to - complain! Blunder ahead with
> a system that was not stable in the first place and make it more
> unstable with new software - complain!
>
>
> Carefully make sure everything is working right, copy your preferences,
> uninstall (and restart if you have Windows) and install the update, make
> sure everything is ok and your plugins are all compatible and updated,
> move your prefs over, check it all again and everything works and then
> you don't need to complain.
>
> Then you can ignore the rude people until they figure out thats not the
> way to get help around here.

Well stated! ;)


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Howard Passman
2009-10-06 10:36:35 UTC
Permalink
iPhone;466165 Wrote:
>
> I can guarantee for every one person that posts they have an issue or
> problem with SBS 7.4 that there are hundreds if not thousands that don't
> have ANY problems and don't post.

I disagree with the above. Maybe hundreds...maybe. Thousands, I
really doubt. I have a great respect for your knowlege and abilities,
but I don't know how much connection you have with the public in any
type of customer service rendering. And by public, I mean the
non-technical public. I work for a small company with about 200 PC
users. Some have been using PC's longer than I have. Out of the 200 I
would hazard a guess that maybe 3 of them might be able to use an SB
product. Even the techinical folks around here can't deal with
computers and home networks. An iPod is about as far as they can get by
themselves(hint to Logitech).

I tend to agree with the poster that said many of these end up in the
garage as failed experiments. Obviously, it would be very hard to see
how many purchasers are still using their SB's, but it might be very
interesting. I know that my first SB, the DUET, came very close to
ending up in the trash. I'm glad it didn't, but I really doubt almost
anyone else I know would have kept it.

If Logitech really wants this thing to get big they need to think
'toaster' or as close as they can get to that type of deivce.

Most folks don't need the additional frustration in their lives and it
shows in the way they express themselves in their posts.


The above is only my opinion and therefor won't even buy you a cup of
coffee.

Howard


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Michael Herger
2009-10-06 10:50:22 UTC
Permalink
> If Logitech really wants this thing to get big they need to think
> 'toaster' or as close as they can get to that type of deivce.

What customers seem to forget is that they don't want a toaster. It's not a standalone device like a toaster or even an iPod. It's a networking device. But with the ease of a toaster? Some users really want the online music, even Facebook and Flickr integration. That's our biggest challenge: Hide the huge complexity the user wants from the user.
Howard Passman
2009-10-06 11:01:27 UTC
Permalink
mherger;467591 Wrote:
> > If Logitech really wants this thing to get big they need to think
> > 'toaster' or as close as they can get to that type of deivce.
>
> What customers seem to forget is that they don't want a toaster. It's
> not a standalone device like a toaster or even an iPod. It's a
> networking device. But with the ease of a toaster? Some users really
> want the online music, even Facebook and Flickr integration. That's our
> biggest challenge: Hide the huge complexity the user wants from the
> user.

...and this isn't aimed at you, Michael. What posters need to
understand is that you can't have it both ways. It can't be everyting
to everyone and not be overly complicated and reliable. No one has ever
achieved that with any product. You can't flame folks for thinking that
it should be easy to use because the advertising leads one to believe
that. When those consumers get frustrated and vent, some folks take
them to task for not understanding it *isn't* a toaster.

Howard


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arztde
2009-10-06 11:49:12 UTC
Permalink
Howard Passman;467598 Wrote:
> ...You can't flame folks for thinking that it should be easy to use
> because the advertising leads one to believe that. When those consumers
> get frustrated and vent, some folks take them to task for not
> understanding it *isn't* a toaster.
>
> Howard

I am not so unexperienced and did not have much problems before this
release.
I think also that more like to see the Squeeze to be connect with a
multimediaplayer. If logitech announce now official a cooperation with a
producer or announce this release is the first step to do it by
theirself be shure the rumors suddenly get quiet.
Because mediaplayers have their biggest problem to play reasonable
music.
i am shure after such an announcement noone look to facebook or
something because it is less important for the most of them.
And also the most users in such a case have no problem with a
releaselike 7.40 if there is such a direction...


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pippin
2009-10-06 12:19:59 UTC
Permalink
arztde;467615 Wrote:
>
> Because mediaplayers have their biggest problem to play reasonable
> music.
> i am shure after such an announcement noone look to facebook or
> something because it is less important for the most of them.
>

I think _this_ would be a really, really, bad idea.
The problem with (multi)media players is that the use cases for audio
and video are so different. Whenever you try to combine it you will end
up with a product that sucks for one feature (usually audio) or even
both.

Just my 2cts.


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Michael Herger
2009-10-06 12:46:59 UTC
Permalink
> The problem with (multi)media players is that the use cases for audio
> and video are so different. Whenever you try to combine it you will end
> up with a product that sucks for one feature (usually audio) or even
> both.

That's what you've seen so far. Someone has to be the first to do it right :-)
arztde
2009-10-06 12:49:18 UTC
Permalink
pippin;467629 Wrote:
> I think _this_ would be a really, really, bad idea.
> The problem with (multi)media players is that the use cases for audio
> and video are so different. Whenever you try to combine it you will end
> up with a product that sucks for one feature (usually audio) or even
> both.
>
> We are talking complex UI here? THAT would give you one hell of a UI
> issue.
>
> Just my 2cts.

I disagree to you Pippin. And i am shure. .-)
It depends only about the internal structure of the User Interface.
I promise you the next steps are playersinside the remote control.
Logitech have it inside the Controller and Ipeng will have it soon to
this inside player. Locuth did made a first announcement somehow for
SlimControl in October this year.
Next step will be maybeebeginning next year to integrate a player
inside a mediaplayer that is able to use the Squeezeserver.
Maybee they use just a Slimserver like its now inside the touch.


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mzpro5
2009-10-06 12:57:10 UTC
Permalink
mherger;467591 Wrote:
> > Some users really want the online music, even Facebook and Flickr
> integration. That's our biggest challenge: Hide the huge complexity the
> user wants from the user.

With the greatest respect I must ask who wants Facebook or Flicker (I
have no idea what flicker is)on a SB? I think this is a case of the tail
wagging the dog. Logitech is trying to increase customer base pure and
simple. Nothing wrong with that but I doubt that there are more than 5%
of SB owners that were waiting for Facebook on their music player. I'll
admit I don't come to the forums every day but I've never heard anyone
ask for Facebook. It certainly has no use on my SB3.


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pippin
2009-10-06 13:34:22 UTC
Permalink
mherger;467639 Wrote:
>
> That's what you've seen so far. Someone has to be the first to do it
> right :-)

There is no "right". "Convergence" is a myth, a technical myth. In the
end. it's not technical platforms that sell systems but user needs.

arztde;467640 Wrote:
> I disagree to you Pippin. And i am shure. .-)
> It depends only about the internal structure of the User Interface.
>
No, internal structure is useless technobabble.
I listen to music while I'm sitting on my desk, while I'm in my bath,
I'm in the kitchen, while I'm dining, while I'm in bed.
I listen to the same music over and over again.

I watch TV in the evening when I want to cease thinking and I watch a
Video when I want to be entertained. Both are things I only do in front
of a TV and I rarely watch the same program even twice.

These use cases are so fundamentally different that they will never
demand the same UI or integration into the same "system".

>
> I promise you the next steps are players inside the remote control.
>
What does this have to do with video or media integration?
My remote control is an iPod touch, which is a player IN THE FIRST
PLACE or a Controller which has had this for a long while. So what?

>
> If Logi starts not someone else will start.
Dozens of companies have already "started" this, they all failed an so
will all that follow.
Including Logitech if the are foolish enough to go that route.

My list of things that will never be successful, I offer bets about
beer on this:

- "Multimedia" Players that replace your audio equipment; you will see
audio features in Media Players (obviously) but they will be a pain to
use and pwople will have other solutions along with them.
- Internet on TV - TV manufacturers might include this but people will
not use it.
- DRMed Music (ok, this is an old one, but I feel it's one I won).
- Internet in the car. I explicitly exclude offboard navigation and
audio/video streaming. But people will never really use a built-in car
device to browse the internet or do their e-mail.

I will add to the list by time...

Don't get me wrong, there will always be a few people doing this,
there's even a number of DAB users out there, but it will never gain
mass market acceptance.


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Michael Herger
2009-10-06 13:45:47 UTC
Permalink
> There is no "right". "Convergence" is a myth, a technical myth. In the

Well, I guess you'd agree that an iPod Touch is proving to be a usable web client. Some years back you'd have said that a device that small can't be a good browser platform, right?
aubuti
2009-10-06 13:47:52 UTC
Permalink
pippin;467667 Wrote:
> My list of things that will never be successful, I offer bets about beer
> on this:
>
> - "Multimedia" Players that replace your audio equipment; you will see
> audio features in Media Players (obviously) but they will be a pain to
> use and pwople will have other solutions along with them.
> - Internet on TV - TV manufacturers might include this but people will
> not use it.
> - DRMed Music (ok, this is an old one, but I feel it's one I won).
> - Internet in the car. I explicitly exclude offboard navigation and
> audio/video streaming. But people will never really use a built-in car
> device to browse the internet or do their e-mail.
>
> I will add to the list by time...
>
> Don't get me wrong, there will always be a few people doing this,
> there's even a number of DAB users out there, but it will never gain
> mass market acceptance.
Don't forget:
- audio streaming that uses the tv as the interface. Sure, there are
some people who do this and actually like it, but its days are numbered
as more and more options like touchscreens and LCD remotes take over.


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arztde
2009-10-06 14:56:43 UTC
Permalink
@pippin i just say i disagree and one will be the first one... ;-) :-)

First to say i have a PCH A110 and my Xtreamer have Sebastian. I have 2
Multimediaplayers but not a TV. Surprizing?

But to use an old LCD Monitor for streaming Pictures to the wall is a
nice idea.

And to change the topic a little bit in the direction of this future
hope will settle the heating down.

Maybee this 7.4 is the small step of logitech to go exact in this
direction. For this hope as it is official will be keep the concerns to
silence into a way of patience...


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pippin
2009-10-06 15:22:51 UTC
Permalink
mherger;467672 Wrote:
> > There is no "right". "Convergence" is a myth, a technical myth. In
> the
>
> Well, I guess you'd agree that an iPod Touch is proving to be a usable
> web client. Some years back you'd have said that a device that small
> can't be a good browser platform, right?

Of course I would. I've used smartphones for 10 years now (staring with
the Ericsson R380) and the very mioment the iPhone came out I wanted one
without the phone for mobile browsing. I always said: forget about the
phone, I just want the "i"... I still believe the iPhone is not a
particularly good PHONE.

YBut you know what: my iPhone doesn't have a single song on it, yet,
for listening I still use the old Nano and OK, sometimes the iTouch.

But video: No way.
I tried the Elgato App. It streams TV from my Mac to the iTouch and
works almost perfectly. Still, the screen is too small for _that_ and I
don't want to use headphones to watch TV or video.

aubuti;467673 Wrote:
> Don't forget:
> - audio streaming that uses the tv as the interface. Sure, there are
> some people who do this and actually like it, but its days are numbered
> as more and more options like touchscreens and LCD remotes take over.

Oh yes. And big Touch-Screen controllers on the wall!

arztde;467706 Wrote:
> @pippin i just say i disagree and one will be the first one... ;-) :-)
>

My bet stands, how much can I write down for you?


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andynormancx
2009-10-06 15:31:23 UTC
Permalink
pippin;467722 Wrote:
> Of course I would. I've used smartphones for 10 years now (staring with
> the Ericsson R380) and the very mioment the iPhone came out I wanted one
> without the phone for mobile browsing. I always said: forget about the
> phone, I just want the "i"... I still believe the iPhone is not a
> particularly good PHONE.
>
> YBut you know what: my iPhone doesn't have a single song on it, yet,
> for listening I still use the old Nano and OK, sometimes the iTouch.
>
Ok, so the iPhone might not be an example of convergence for you, but
for many other people it is a perfect example.

I used to carry a phone, a PDA, an MP3 player, a radio and a GPS
navigation device.

Now I just carry my iPhone. Not only has it replaced 5 devices for me,
but it also fills in for my laptop. I now don't often take my laptop
with me unless I know I need to do some development, for email and web
browsing away from my desk my iPhone is all I need most of the time.

The iPhone might not be the best phone, music player, PDA, GPS device
or radio. But it does a usable job of being all those devices in one,
for me. It is good enough at all those tasks to make the compromises it
bring more than bearable.


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pippin
2009-10-06 15:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Agree. But it's still pretty similar use cases: Communication and doing
computing stuff while on the move.

You won't write a book on it, use it to watch soccer (unless you have
no alternative) or use it to listen to opera in your living room.

I don't believe that will not buy
- a computer
- a stereo
- a TV
- a Camera

because you do already own an iPhone.


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andynormancx
2009-10-06 16:00:06 UTC
Permalink
pippin;467735 Wrote:
>
> Yet that's the claim for "convergence devices" and I say: not gonna
> happen.
It sounds a bit like your definition for "convergence devices" is
"things that haven't yet and aren't likely to converge" ;)

My definition includes things that could and already have converged.


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pippin
2009-10-06 16:09:30 UTC
Permalink
andynormancx;467748 Wrote:
> It sounds a bit like your definition for "convergence devices" is
> "things that haven't yet and aren't likely to converge" ;)
>
> My definition includes things that could and already have converged.

OK, I won't bet against YOU unless we could agree to adopt my
definition...

I was specifically talking about convergence in home entertainment but
agree that at least my "car" comment had nothing to do with _that_...


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arztde
2009-10-06 17:05:10 UTC
Permalink
pippin;467753 Wrote:
> OK, I won't bet against YOU unless we could agree to adopt my
> definition...
>
> I was specifically talking about convergence in home entertainment but
> agree that at least my "car" comment had nothing to do with _that_...

Was more in my direction i guess... because in another thread i was
writing in missunderstanding the english topic, that i use it with
SlimControl and UMTS in my car and let transfer the music via bluetooth
into my car stereo.

After reviewing, i did delete the posting because it appear to others
maybee for spam...

Anyways Pippin its time to cool down for all. The rumors or concerns
are because with 7.4 Logitech in parts surprize a lot of users with a
new direction, that they will not change, if its good or not.

I hope the bugfixing goes on fast and there is a major pressure for
Logitech to do it better soon. So testing circle run more fast for them.
Lot of dealers in local shops will not place the Touch. they will decide
for the small radio. I did not see the Duet inside a local shop once.
Allways the boom and the classic. And here the local dealers have
arround 10 different internetradios of different producers ready for
testing.


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pippin
2009-10-06 18:56:07 UTC
Permalink
arztde;467800 Wrote:
> Was more in my direction i guess... because in another thread i was
> writing in missunderstanding the english topic, that i use it with
> SlimControl and UMTS in my car and let transfer the music via bluetooth
> into my car stereo.
>

No. That's my own past experience trying to explain to car
manufacturers that they will NOT become rich and famous by offering
three branded "internet" services in their cars for only $100 a month
but focus on just putting the stuff in cars people already want there
and sell that at a healthy profit.

Market told them later and when it did they finally believed it.

I learned my part, too, though which also applies here:
"Not everything that is being done to a product is being done for
customers!"

I BET there's a car being sold with facebook today, too. The last phone
I bought (no, not an iPhone) had a BIG "works with facebook" sticker,
too.
Who this is done for is investors. The idea is that people who crave to
invest gazillions in a business that only creates losses and probably
ever will but who can't get an entry there might be tempted to route
some of their funds into the stock of some other company that at least
prints the label on their boxes.

And hey, after all that makes sense!


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WustrowO
2009-10-06 19:10:27 UTC
Permalink
IMHO the reason for the current problems lies in the attempt to
integrate all kinds of players into one mysqueezebox platform. The
features are much too diverse for a successful integration. There should
be at least two platforms, one for audio-only players and another one
for the new players with the new display capabilities like the Touch.
Logitech should have kept Squeezenetwork for audio-only players and
build mysqueezebox for the new ones.


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toby10
2009-10-06 19:54:04 UTC
Permalink
WustrowO;467888 Wrote:
> IMHO the reason for the current problems lies in the attempt to
> integrate all kinds of players into one mysqueezebox platform. The
> features are much too diverse for a successful integration. There should
> be at least two platforms, one for audio-only players and another one
> for the new players with advanced display capabilities like the Touch.
> Logitech should have kept Squeezenetwork for audio-only players and
> build mysqueezebox for the new ones.

But then, going forward, people with both types will say:
- "it's too confusing to have two different online server types for my
two different players?"
- "why can't my favorites on MySB sync with SN?"
- "why have Napster in My Apps over here, but have it in Music Services
over there?"

Which puts us right back where we are today.

You can't please everyone. :(


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WustrowO
2009-10-06 20:01:57 UTC
Permalink
That's probably right. But I guess most of the "normal" people have just
one player.

Another solution could have been to focus on the new models and
mysqueezebox for some time and migrate Squeezenetwork after a
consolidation period. There only a few Touch/Radio users yet but many
users with legacy boxes and a bunch of problems now...


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MrSinatra
2009-10-06 20:04:12 UTC
Permalink
people should be able to express their frustrations, and do so in a way
that isn't rude, altho rude is rather subjective.

having said that i generally like the direction logitech is taking
everything, and i do think one day it will be tivo-ish simple to use for
most folks.

what i do wish however, is that they would stop rollout of new clients
for a [good long] while. what they should do is consider making a SBS
piece of hardware, (which would really be helpful for providing a SBS
testing baseline/benchmark), and regardless of if they do that or not,
concentrate on killing off all the bugs in bugzilla.

i track many bugs in bugzilla and to me, its just ridiculous which ones
get attention and which ones don't, even after years and years. the new
client rollout for instance has delayed the "new schema" work which when
finished will quash (hopefully) a HUGE number of bugs.

a lot of the bugs speak to basic functionality, which is implied to be
working by the UI, but which isn't. enough new clients, get back to the
basics and fundamentals and work on registered bugs.


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pippin
2009-10-06 20:19:38 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;467924 Wrote:
>
> i track many bugs in bugzilla and to me, its just ridiculous which ones
> get attention and which ones don't, even after years and years. the new
> client rollout for instance has delayed the "new schema" work which when
> finished will quash (hopefully) a HUGE number of bugs.
>

This company has to make some money, so bringing out new products is
first priority.
I believe "New Schema" is too big a change to fit in there.
I only believe that this will come at all when I see the first beta
that has it.


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MrSinatra
2009-10-06 20:28:54 UTC
Permalink
well, they have done so. there are enough clients at this point.
(altho i personally think the "radio" is one stupid product, and
transporter ridiculously overpriced)

regardless of if radio and touch were or will be money makers, (or were
in fact "needed") i think the current lineup now is enough to make them
money and serve any home audio need. ergo at this point they need to
work on the backend of the deal, which i realize has been worked on, 7.4
looks to be a big improvement, but it needs more, again, judging by
bugzilla.

i hope your pessimism regarding new schema isn't true, b/c if it is
that means a whole lot of bugs, including som rather bsic ones, are
simply not going to be addressed at all, ever.


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kmr
2009-10-07 03:36:41 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;467944 Wrote:
> (altho i personally think the "radio" is one stupid product, and
> transporter ridiculously overpriced)
>
>

I can't fathom your lack of love for the SB Radio. What's not to like?
Compact, tote-able package; the forthcoming battery pack for true
mobility; great sound (according to the beta testers - I haven't heard
it yet); the color display; and an extremely affordable price. The only
knock I've heard on it is the lack of stereo, and that shouldn't be much
of a problem in that small a package - mono output is fine. Actually,
I'll rephrase my question at the top: what's not to LOVE? I predict the
Radio will be a big hit, and almost certainly will be the product that
moves me to a multi-Squeezebox household in the near future.

The Transporter, on the other hand, is an extremely niche product. I
have no idea how much the markup on it is, but it's probably a lot. But
if it were priced a lot less expensively, it would not appeal to a
significant segment of the "audiophile" market because they would refuse
to believe that it was any good at that price. (An aside: when did the
woo-woo fringe take over audiophile country? Back in the '70s and '80s,
in the glory days of Stereo Review magazine featuring the hardnosed
engineer Julian Hirsch as their equipment maven, there was an emphasis
on scientific method: what differences can be reliably distinguished in
listening tests? how do those differences correlate to measurable
characteristics of equipment? how do we test to minimize listener bias?
Etc.; for example, Hirsch was one of the first to debunk the myths of
gourmet speaker cables. You could go into your local hi-fi store and
assemble a decent system, with components from good manufacturers, for a
decent price. Nowadays, the middle-priced high-quality stereo equipment
market seems to have gone the way of the dodo, and most of the
information out there - certainly the magazines - seem to be written by
woo-woo charlatans.)


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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 05:28:21 UTC
Permalink
kmr;468133 Wrote:
> I can't fathom your lack of love for the SB Radio. What's not to like?
> Compact, tote-able package; the forthcoming battery pack for true
> mobility; great sound (according to the beta testers - I haven't heard
> it yet); the color display; and an extremely affordable price. The only
> knock I've heard on it is the lack of stereo, and that shouldn't be much
> of a problem in that small a package - mono output is fine. Actually,
> I'll rephrase my question at the top: what's not to LOVE? I predict the
> Radio will be a big hit, and almost certainly will be the product that
> moves me to a multi-Squeezebox household in the near future.

the controller [sbc] is smaller, stereo, and more portable.

i just don't get a "talk radio" only SB. i really don't.

kmr;468133 Wrote:
> The Transporter, on the other hand, is an extremely niche product. I
> have no idea how much the markup on it is, but it's probably a lot. But
> if it were priced a lot less expensively, it would not appeal to a
> significant segment of the "audiophile" market because they would refuse
> to believe that it was any good at that price. (An aside: when did the
> woo-woo fringe take over audiophile country? Back in the '70s and '80s,
> in the glory days of Stereo Review magazine featuring the hardnosed
> engineer Julian Hirsch as their equipment maven, there was an emphasis
> on scientific method: what differences can be reliably distinguished in
> listening tests? how do those differences correlate to measurable
> characteristics of equipment? how do we test to minimize listener bias?
> Etc.; for example, Hirsch was one of the first to debunk the myths of
> gourmet speaker cables. You could go into your local hi-fi store and
> assemble a decent system, with components from good manufacturers, for a
> decent price. Nowadays, the middle-priced high-quality stereo equipment
> market seems to have gone the way of the dodo, and most of the
> information out there - certainly the magazines - seem to be written by
> woo-woo charlatans.)

the TP is simply NOT worth it. if it had SC [sbs] onboard with say
linux / webui and usb options etc, then maybe. it SHOULD have been
standalone capable, but as a "highend SB" it is to me, a gross waste of
money. julian hirsch would surely agree, as i doubt ANYONE could
reliably tell the difference between a SB2 and a TP in a double blind
listening test.


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toby10
2009-10-07 10:26:55 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468152 Wrote:
> the controller [sbc] is smaller, stereo, and more portable.
>
> i just don't get a "talk radio" only SB. i really don't......

Controller is smaller, if you want to use headphones.

I'm guessing a big part of the Radio concept is to introduce SB players
to a wider audience utilizing a more basic and familiar form factor.
Then, once bitten, the Radio customer is much more inclined to look at
other SB players.

But, I do see your point about the SB Radio, particularly at it's MSRP
price point. Even being a big fan of SB players I would have given a
pass to a battery operated mono player at $249. I first assumed the
entire package would be around $149.

Of course I say I would not have been interested in such a player
having not had a battery on my Beta Radio. Ask me again once we get
battery units and I may feel quite different. :)


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morris_minor
2009-10-07 12:27:00 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468152 Wrote:
>
> i just don't get a "talk radio" only SB. i really don't.

Are you saying you can't use the Radio for playing your own music
collection? Or music radio?


MrSinatra;468152 Wrote:
>
> the TP is simply NOT worth it ..... as i doubt ANYONE could reliably
> tell the difference between a SB2 and a TP in a double blind listening
> test.

Have you tried :)


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aubuti
2009-10-07 13:32:20 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468152 Wrote:
> i just don't get a "talk radio" only SB. i really don't.
Why do you think it's "talk radio only"? Because it's mono? The audio
quality is actually very good, with enough oomph to fill a normal sized
room at comfortable listening levels. I think it compares nicely to the
popular Tivoli table radios, not to mention those Bose table radios that
you see around a lot, which are at a higher price point. It's not for
critical listening, and I don't expect to see them going in many living
rooms. But kitchens, offices, nightstands, patios -- sure.


--
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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 16:28:45 UTC
Permalink
stereo = suitable for music or talk
mono = suitable for talk, not preferable for music

if anyone were to buy this thing to listen to music, i'd think they
should have their head examined, (or at least their hearing). even a
mono music source doesn't get justice on a tiny thing like this. i mean
come on, this thing is simply not geared to music, lets not argue the
obvious.

some SB products are fantastic, and some aren't. sbradio is just
dopey, in pretty much everyway, its way niche and i think at $249 is way
overpriced! why anyone would want this over a boom is hard for me to
say. i mean its battery operated, but so is SBC. how many people have
a spot for this thing where they will have net but not AC?

(and don't anyone get offended by my opinion, its jmho, no need to
stress over it)


--
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Phil Leigh
2009-10-07 16:35:22 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468514 Wrote:
> stereo = suitable for music or talk
> mono = suitable for talk, not preferable for music
>
> if anyone were to buy this thing to listen to music, i'd think they
> should have their head examined, (or at least their hearing). even a
> mono music source doesn't get justice on a tiny thing like this. i mean
> come on, this thing is simply not geared to music, lets not argue the
> obvious.
>
> some SB products are fantastic, and some aren't. sbradio is just
> dopey, in pretty much everyway, its way niche and i think at $249 is way
> overpriced! why anyone would want this over a boom is hard for me to
> say. i mean its battery operated, but so is SBC. how many people have
> a spot for this thing where they will have net but not AC?
>
> (and don't anyone get offended by my opinion, its jmho, no need to
> stress over it)

erm... until the sixties there was no stereo - I don't think Stereo is
in any way, shape or form mandatory - sometimes mono is actually
preferable if that is how the material was recorded and mixed...

I have net in my back yard but I'd rather not trail an AC cable over it
as I do for the Boom... and when it rains I can just grab it and run!

ymmv


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 17:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;468518 Wrote:
> erm... until the sixties there was no stereo - I don't think Stereo is
> in any way, shape or form mandatory - sometimes mono is actually
> preferable if that is how the material was recorded and mixed...

really? so tell me, when is the last time you fired up a mono source
(that you encoded as mono too btw) on your main hifi super expensive
stereo system and listened to it out of just ONE speaker???

i have no beef against mono sources, like say the beatles mono set.
but if i listen to that, it won't be on this silly sbradio, it'll be on
some kind of stereo which is geared towards music.

Phil Leigh;468518 Wrote:
> I have net in my back yard but I'd rather not trail an AC cable over it
> as I do for the Boom... and when it rains I can just grab it and run!
>
> ymmv

thats fair enough, but my point is that is incredibly niche imo, and
even then not suitable for music, talk only. seems to me the SBC suits
that scenario better.


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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 17:18:00 UTC
Permalink
in fairness i should point out that the webpage has it for $199. still
way too much imo, but it should be mentioned. (if tobys initial $249
figure is correct, one wonders why it already had a 20% price cut?)


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erland
2009-10-07 17:32:43 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468552 Wrote:
> in fairness i should point out that the webpage has it for $199. still
> way too much imo, but it should be mentioned. (if tobys initial $249
> figure is correct, one wonders why it already had a 20% price cut?)
>

I think the optional battery pack takes care of the other $50 so you
get a total of $249.


--
erland

Erland Isaksson
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Phil Leigh
2009-10-07 17:39:40 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468546 Wrote:
> really? so tell me, when is the last time you fired up a mono source
> (that you encoded as mono too btw) on your main hifi super expensive
> stereo system and listened to it out of just ONE speaker???
>
> i have no beef against mono sources, like say the beatles mono set.
> but if i listen to that, it won't be on this silly sbradio, it'll be on
> some kind of stereo which is geared towards music.
>
>
>
> thats fair enough, but my point is that is incredibly niche imo, and
> even then not suitable for music, talk only. seems to me the SBC suits
> that scenario better.

Well obviously I've never just used one speaker on my main system!
In fact it has something you'd love called "party mode" where it can
put a mono source through all 5 speakers - bathing you in mono!

There's no law of the universe that says that music only sounds
right/good from two (or more) speakers.

If I had to, I could happily listen to a single big Klipschorn in the
corner.

Putting mono through two speakers just makes it louder... try it and
see!


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 18:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;468582 Wrote:
> Well obviously I've never just used one speaker on my main system!

exactly.

but thats what the sbradio does, even to STEREO sources, which is the
criticism i'm making.

Phil Leigh;468582 Wrote:
> In fact it has something you'd love called "party mode" where it can put
> a mono source through all 5 speakers - bathing you in mono!

i'm somewhat confused here, as i'm not a 4.1/5.1 expert. isn't that
what its supposed to do? is that a special feature? i understand it
wouldn't make sense to send stereo to all the speakers without
processing, but if it knew the source was mono, why wouldn't it send to
all the speakers?

Phil Leigh;468582 Wrote:
> There's no law of the universe that says that music only sounds
> right/good from two (or more) speakers.

i wasn't saying that. what i was saying, is that most music most
people have is stereo, and so this fails out the gate for stereo music
sources.

again, i have no beef with mono sources. i do have beef with stereo
sources being played back on a mono device thats basically the same cost
as alternative stereo devices.

Phil Leigh;468582 Wrote:
> If I had to, I could happily listen to a single big Klipschorn in the
> corner.
>
> Putting mono through two speakers just makes it louder... try it and
> see!

yes, i understand that. again, the criticism was stereo music sources
via one 3inch speaker (or whatever it is), since most music is in fact,
stereo.


--
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erland
2009-10-07 16:37:44 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468514 Wrote:
>
> if anyone were to buy this thing to listen to music, i'd think they
> should have their head examined, (or at least their hearing). even a
> mono music source doesn't get justice on a tiny thing like this. i mean
> come on, this thing is simply not geared to music, lets not argue the
> obvious.
>
It depends on the placement.

It's certainly not suitable to have as the main player in a dedicated
listening rooms, but in other kind of placements it really doesn't
matter if it's stereo or mono.
If the surroundings isn't designed for stereo sound, why pay extra for
it ?


--
erland

Erland Isaksson
'My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info) (Install my plugins through
Extension Downloader)
(Developer of 'TrackStat, SQLPlayList, DynamicPlayList, Custom Browse,
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aubuti
2009-10-07 17:27:15 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468514 Wrote:
> if anyone were to buy this thing to listen to music, i'd think they
> should have their head examined, (or at least their hearing). even a
> mono music source doesn't get justice on a tiny thing like this. i mean
> come on, this thing is simply not geared to music, lets not argue the
> obvious.
So obviously you've heard one, or are you going on specs alone?


--
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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 17:38:14 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;468566 Wrote:
> So obviously you've heard one, or are you going on specs alone?

yes, b/c i know what stereo sounds like on a mono speaker. are you now
going to contend its just as good?


--
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www.lion-radio.org
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aubuti
2009-10-07 17:53:54 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468580 Wrote:
> yes, b/c i know what stereo sounds like on a mono speaker. are you now
> going to contend its just as good?
As I thought -- you're opining that something "obviously" isn't suited
for music, but you've never heard it. Well, it's hard to argue with
that.

Does the SB Radio sound as good as the Boom? No, not to my ears. Does
it sound as good as a comparably priced 'Tivoli One'
(http://www.tivoliaudio.com/home.php?cat=262)? Probably yes. And the
Tivoli One doesn't do network anything. Does the more expensive 'Bose
table radio'
(http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/wave_systems/wave_radio_ii/index.jsp)
obviously sound better because it's stereo? I doubt it.


--
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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 18:05:15 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;468596 Wrote:
> As I thought -- you're opining that something "obviously" isn't suited
> for music, but you've never heard it. Well, it's hard to argue with
> that.
>
> Does the SB Radio sound as good as the Boom? No, not to my ears. Does
> it sound as good as a comparably priced 'Tivoli One'
> (http://www.tivoliaudio.com/home.php?cat=262)? Probably yes. And the
> Tivoli One doesn't do network anything. Does the more expensive 'Bose
> table radio'
> (http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/wave_systems/wave_radio_ii/index.jsp)
> obviously sound better because it's stereo? I doubt it.

so obviously, you've heard the bose wave stereo? ;)

i have one, and there is no way the sbradio could sound as good as it
does.

btw, you basically proved my point, you just admitted te boom sounds
better, something i knew without listening. how? b/c its obvios. sex
with a hooker in haiti isn't smething i need to try to know its a bad
idea.


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aubuti
2009-10-07 18:20:54 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468608 Wrote:
> so obviously, you've heard the bose wave stereo? ;)
>
> i have one, and there is no way the sbradio could sound as good as it
> does.
>
> btw, you basically proved my point, you just admitted the boom sounds
> better, something i knew without listening. how? b/c its obvious. sex
> with a hooker in haiti isn't something i need to try to know its a bad
> idea.
Yes, obviously I've heard plenty of Bose table radios. It's a rather
large "niche". They're adequate table radios IMO, but the audio quality
is nothing special, especially for $350. I have compared the Bose
closely with the mono Tivoli, and I think the mono Tivoli sounds much
more musical. But I've never heard the Bose side-by-side with an SB
Radio, or done enough careful listening to both (within a reasonable
time interval) to make a fair comparison.

And the Boom sounding better than the SB Radio is hardly a
controversial point. You have the same materials, similar DSP and other
engineering inside. That hardly proves that all stereo audio equipment
is superior to all mono equipment.


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Phil Leigh
2009-10-07 18:28:56 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;468622 Wrote:
> Yes, obviously I've heard plenty of Bose table radios. It's a rather
> large "niche". They're adequate table radios IMO, but the audio quality
> is nothing special, especially for $350. I have compared the Bose
> closely with the mono Tivoli, and I think the mono Tivoli sounds much
> more musical. But I've never heard the Bose side-by-side with an SB
> Radio, or done enough careful listening to both (within a reasonable
> time interval) to make a fair comparison.
>
>
For what it's worth, the Tivoli Model One blows the Bose Wave radio
away for enjoyment and musicality IMO - stereo or not. Never mind the
exhorbitant cost of the Bose (in the UK anyway).

The Radio can hold its own against the Model one (I have both in my
kitchen). I can happily listen to either.


ymmv


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 18:35:42 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;468622 Wrote:
> That hardly proves that all stereo audio equipment is superior to all
> mono equipment.

well, when i make that argument, it'll be a fair point. till then, its
a strawman.

as to your other point, my question is then this:

why get a sbradio when you can get a boom for $50 more?

or, why not a SBC if thats more suited?

that is ALL i have been trying to say.


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andynormancx
2009-10-07 18:38:38 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468629 Wrote:
>
> why get a sbradio when you can get a boom for $50 more?
>

Because the Boom cannot isn't battery powered.

MrSinatra;468629 Wrote:
>
> or, why not a SBC if thats more suited?
>

a) because the speaker is a bit crap
b) because playback doesn't really work very well under 7.4


--
andynormancx

Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ?
I SAID ALL OF THEM !
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aubuti
2009-10-07 18:47:37 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468629 Wrote:
> well, when i make that argument, it'll be a fair point. till then, its
> a strawman.
Fine, then insert "there is no way the sbradio could sound as good as
it [Bose wave radio] does." If stereo/mono wasn't your basis for that
comparison, what was?

MrSinatra;468629 Wrote:
> as to your other point, my question is then this:
>
> why get a sbradio when you can get a boom for $50 more?
>
> or, why not a SBC if thats more suited?
I wouldn't. (I also wouldn't buy a Bose Wave for $150 more, but I
digress.) Why might others buy the SB Radio instead of a Boom?

a) because the Boom is $100 more, not $50
b) battery capability (which then makes the difference only $50)
c) smaller footprint
d) LCD screen (I like the VFD better, but some prefer the LCD)


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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 19:18:31 UTC
Permalink
good job pat! call me a troll b/c you don't like me or what i say, or
that i DARE to criticze something about slim!

gimmie a break. first of all, i made one off hand remark about the
sbradio, and lots of others asked me to clarify. excuse me for
answering.

secondly, it is TOTALLY germane to the forums to make judgments about
the products, and or compare and contrast them and teir qualities, and
or talk about bang for your buck.

if that kind of discussion becomes classified by pom pom'rs as "troll"
behavior this forum is doomed to cheerleading.

aubuti;468639 Wrote:
> Fine, then insert "there is no way the sbradio could sound as good as it
> [Bose wave radio] does." If stereo/mono wasn't your basis for that
> comparison, what was?

i've heard my bose for years, and i've heard stereo sources on many
differing mono players, and so i am taking a qualified leap to say what
i am saying, esp since others here say the boom sounds better, and i
think the boom is roughly equal to my bose, (but again, i have not been
able to do side by side, i only heard the boom in a store, so not the
best way to judge i admit) but its on the basis of all that i made the
judgment hardly reason for pat or iphone to attack me.

aubuti;468639 Wrote:
> I wouldn't. (I also wouldn't buy a Bose Wave for $150 more, but I
> digress.) Why might others buy the SB Radio instead of a Boom?
>
> a) because the Boom is $100 more, not $50
> b) battery capability (which then makes the difference only $50)
> c) smaller footprint
> d) LCD screen (I like the VFD better, but some prefer the LCD)

without the battery, it loses one of its main differentiating
characteristics. with it, it becomes a pretty slight price difference.
i still don't see great need of a battery operated device that can get
net bu won't have AC access.

smaller... well, the sbc is smaller still, and has a lcd screen, and a
battery. but how many people need the space between a sbradio and
boom?

interestingly we agree apparently on the utility to ourselves. our
only difference of opinion is you seem to think this has a place for
some, whereas i, imho, don't think it legitimately does. but i guess
thats enough to make me a troll. ;)


--
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iPhone
2009-10-07 18:44:17 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468580 Wrote:
> yes, b/c i know what stereo sounds like on a mono speaker. are you now
> going to contend its just as good?

The question has been asked have you actually listened to a Radio?
Since that is still unanswered I will take that as a NO. Your position
holds no weight whatsoever since you know not what you are speaking
about.

Is the Radio perfect, it is not. Does it sound good for what it is, IMO
it sounds great for what it is (and I have one). The Mono from the two
drives sounds really good and let us not forget that DSP is involved.
This is much more then a mono clock radio with a single 2 inch paper
cone driver. Does my Boom sound better, I think it does. But the better
half loves the Radio for its size and sound. It is a great little radio
for bedside, table top, back deck, or kitchen counter. Is it for a party
on the back deck, no it is not, it is for background or local listening
while enjoying the late afternoon.

As to price, I think its not priced right as my argument is that with
battery and remote it is only $50 less then a Boom. But again the
consumer, the market, and time will tell what is the right price. So on
price, I would say we agree.

And in your later posts you keep comparing it to stereo units. That is
like comparing Elephants to Raisins just because they both have
wrinkles. The Radio sounds good for what it is. And now that you admit
you have a Bose Radio this discussion is completely over! Talk about an
over priced piece of junk, the Bose Radio takes the prize in that
department. All one gets with it is all the advertising it took to get
one to buy it and the advertising it takes for the next sucker to buy
one. Bose proved that with enough advertising one CAN even sell ice to
Eskimos! Bose IS all about the money and nothing to do with the sound.
Look at the 901, a cheap 4 inch paper full range driver facing forward
with 8 of the same drivers facing the rear. Bose are the masters of the
advertising con game. Logitech puts separate modern drivers in both the
Boom and Radio, not cheap small full range drivers.


--
iPhone

*iPhone*
Media Room:
Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr
6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Mains, VCC-5 Reference
Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope
2.35:1

Living Room:
Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A
Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1

Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM
Bedroom: Second Boom
Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio
Ford Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini
Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive
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Pat Farrell
2009-10-07 18:50:27 UTC
Permalink
iPhone wrote:
> MrSinatra;468580 Wrote:
>> yes, b/c i know what stereo sounds like on a mono speaker. are you now
>> going to contend its just as good?
>
> The question has been asked have you actually listened to a Radio?
> Since that is still unanswered I will take that as a NO. Your position
> holds no weight whatsoever since you know not what you are speaking
> about.

Seriously, do not feed the trolls.
Why are there so many rude comments? because there are too many trolls


--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/
iPhone
2009-10-07 19:02:00 UTC
Permalink
pfarrell;468643 Wrote:
> iPhone wrote:
> > MrSinatra;468580 Wrote:
> >> yes, b/c i know what stereo sounds like on a mono speaker. are you
> now
> >> going to contend its just as good?
> >
> > The question has been asked have you actually listened to a Radio?
> > Since that is still unanswered I will take that as a NO. Your
> position
> > holds no weight whatsoever since you know not what you are speaking
> > about.
>
> Seriously, do not feed the trolls.
> Why are there so many rude comments? because there are too many
> trolls
>
>
> --
> Pat Farrell
> http://www.pfarrell.com/

Pat, you are once again completely correct. I just can't keep from
typing sometimes especially when somebody doesn't even own and has never
heard the product they are bashing (and they are whining about the price
and they own a Bose Wave Radio for crying out loud).

Good point and learn from this kids, Pat says "Don't Feed the Trolls"


--
iPhone

*iPhone*
Media Room:
Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr
6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Mains, VCC-5 Reference
Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope
2.35:1

Living Room:
Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A
Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1

Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM
Bedroom: Second Boom
Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio
Ford Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini
Ford Expedition: SB Touch, USB drive
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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 19:05:11 UTC
Permalink
to andynorx:

obviously, i meant to use the sbc with headphones.

iPhone;468637 Wrote:
> The question has been asked have you actually listened to a Radio? Since
> that is still unanswered I will take that as a NO. Your position holds
> no weight whatsoever since you know not what you are speaking about.

i answered it. and frankly, you guys harping on this point isn't very
valid since i have yet to hear anyone say the sbradio sounds better than
the boom.

can i not use aggregated opinion from these boards?

iPhone;468637 Wrote:
> Is the Radio perfect, it is not. Does it sound good for what it is, IMO
> it sounds great for what it is (and I have one). The Mono from the two
> drives sounds really good and let us not forget that DSP is involved.
> This is much more then a mono clock radio with a single 2 inch paper
> cone driver. Does my Boom sound better, I think it does. But the better
> half loves the Radio for its size and sound. It is a great little radio
> for bedside, table top, back deck, or kitchen counter. Is it for a party
> on the back deck, no it is not, it is for background or local listening
> while enjoying the late afternoon.

is the boom not for those things?

iPhone;468637 Wrote:
> As to price, I think its not priced right as my argument is that with
> battery and remote it is only $50 less then a Boom. But again the
> consumer, the market, and time will tell what is the right price. So on
> price, I would say we agree.

well, that was one of the two pillars of my argument.

iPhone;468637 Wrote:
> And in your later posts you keep comparing it to stereo units. That is
> like comparing Elephants to Raisins just because they both have
> wrinkles. The Radio sounds good for what it is.

if we forget price, and just compare sbradio to boom, boom wins. now,
we can debate what is or isn't the equal of the boom outside slim, or
how much difference in price matters, but the basic premise is to me,
set.

iPhone;468637 Wrote:
> And now that you admit you have a Bose Radio this discussion is
> completely over!

wow, thats reasonable! ;)

iPhone;468637 Wrote:
> Talk about an over priced piece of junk, the Bose Radio takes the prize
> in that department. All one gets with it is all the advertising it took
> to get one to buy it and the advertising it takes for the next sucker to
> buy one. Bose proved that with enough advertising one CAN even sell ice
> to Eskimos! Bose IS all about the money and nothing to do with the
> sound. Look at the 901, a cheap 4 inch paper full range driver facing
> forward with 8 of the same drivers facing the rear. Bose are the masters
> of the advertising con game. Logitech puts separate modern drivers in
> both the Boom and Radio, not cheap small full range drivers.

i paid well under $100 for mine (refurb). not sure what model, but it
has CD. its the best bedside alarm clock/radio i've ever had. and to
me it sounds loud and full without getting distorted. i've never heard
a boom side by side to it, but i don't recall thinking "hey, that boom
sounds better." maybe it does, hopefully one day i can find out.

anyway...

i'd rather have my inexpensive (to me) wave or pay for a boom, then
have the pointless (to me) sbradio.


--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
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Goodsounds
2009-10-07 17:32:47 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468514 Wrote:
>
> if anyone were to buy this thing to listen to music, i'd think they
> should have their head examined,
For most likely placements of an SB Radio, whether it's mono or stereo
is going to be irrelevant. In in a kitchen, a bedroom, or outside on a
patio, personal movement and body orientation relative to the speakers
make it unlikely most people would hear stereo separation anyway. I have
an SB3 in my bedroom with good sounding powered stereo speakers, and
while it sounds great, I'd likely be just as happy with mono sound. I
can't hear stereo separation with one ear against a pillow, or when I'm
walking around the room, can you?

A lot of people buy table and clock radios. This product provides those
buyers access to the Squeezebox world in a compact form factor, and also
at a lower entry cost. Great product design, I think (and hope) it will
be very popular.


MrSinatra;468514 Wrote:
> (and don't anyone get offended by my opinion, its jmho, no need to
> stress over it)

No harm, no foul


--
Goodsounds
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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 17:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Goodsounds;468576 Wrote:
> For most likely placements of an SB Radio, whether it's mono or stereo
> is going to be irrelevant. In in a kitchen, a bedroom, or outside on a
> patio, personal movement and body orientation relative to the speakers
> make it unlikely most people would hear stereo separation anyway. I have
> an SB3 in my bedroom with good sounding powered stereo speakers, and
> while it sounds great, I'd likely be just as happy with mono sound. I
> can't hear stereo separation with one ear against a pillow, or when I'm
> walking around the room, can you?
>
> A lot of people buy table and clock radios. This product provides those
> buyers access to the Squeezebox world in a compact form factor, and also
> at a lower entry cost. Great product design, I think (and hope) it will
> be very popular.

if its popular, then logitech succeeds, making money is the name of the
game. but it doesn't change my opinion that its silly. the boom is
$299, and according to posts in the radio forum, the boom sounds
better.

if one gets the battery too, supposedly a big selling point, then is
the $50 saved worth it? and while one might not always be able to
perceive stereo separation given activity or environment, i know i can
always tell the difference between levels of radios, from a trad alarm
clock radio (mono) to a bose wave radio to a true stereo system. its
just obvious regardless of environment/activity.

i'm not trying to bgrudge anyone their happiness with this thing, i
just question the logic of it. sales is reason alone from a business
standpoint, sure, but i don't argue that point. i argue what need this
fills, that the boom or SBC doesn't fill better? to me, its a small and
expensive niche only, and very questionable.


--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
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Pale Blue Ego
2009-10-07 19:05:13 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;468514 Wrote:
> stereo = suitable for music or talk
> mono = suitable for talk, not preferable for music

Mono sounds fantastic on our Tivoli iPal. Plenty loud, even for
outdoors. We use it outside when we do yard work and gardening.


--
Pale Blue Ego
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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 19:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Pale Blue Ego;468649 Wrote:
> Mono sounds fantastic on our Tivoli iPal. Plenty loud, even for
> outdoors. We use it outside when we do yard work and gardening.

i believe you, really i do. but my contention is that, all other
things being equal, stereo sources sound better on stereo players, and
so i would try to make that happen in whatever usage case i required.


--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
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bluegaspode
2009-10-07 19:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

I confess !
I'm one of the bad guys.
I just ordered a radio.

Do I feel bad ? Hell no ... can't wait the postman ringing ...

So I think the question was: why not the boom ?
I think thats easy ...
- radio is 100bucks cheaper.
- radio has a size which fits the small table at the bedside (boom just
too big)
- if a boom stood there I wouldn't have stereo either (just one ear
pointing to the stereo boom is mono - isn't it ? )
- did I says it was on my bedside ? No - my better half demanded to
have it on hers (she saw it at IFA earlier) ! So even less demand for
stereo and SHE definitely doesn't care
- and did I mention that its much more comfortable to move through the
menus of a radio than a boom ?

So why not a Controller then ?
- Um - its more expensive than a radio (ok - just 10 bucks)
- But does it have a speaker to fall into sleep while its playing ? Um
- yes it has a speaker - but we REALLY don't wont to talk about it :)
- Does it have favourites ? Sort of but not with extra buttons to
switch fast between my favourite radio stations ?
- Does it stand as good on the bedside as a radio ? No - if I don't
take it, it falls over
- and the most important point: did my better half ever use the
Controller yet ? Nooooooooo ... don't know why ... she just makes fun of
me when I sit here fiddling with this little thingy

Guess I had no other chance than bying a radio ?

Would I buy one more radio ?
Maybe for the kitchen ? When dinner is cooking I really don't care for
stereo too and why not take the cheaper price then ?


--
bluegaspode

1x SB-Controller+Receiver, 1xSB-Boom. Server running on Linkstation NAS
(LS-CHL).
One radio to come when its available
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snarlydwarf
2009-10-07 19:51:30 UTC
Permalink
bluegaspode;468667 Wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I confess !
> I'm one of the bad guys.
> I just ordered a radio.
>

I hate to inform you of this, but you simply do not exist, as there is
no market for such a thing.


>
> - if a boom stood there I wouldn't have stereo either (just one ear
> pointing to the stereo boom is mono - isn't it ? )
>

Exactly. or sitting too close... it is very easy to corrupt the stereo
effect.

But, then, you don't exist, so I can't agree with you.

Did I mention I hate headphones?

Earbuds make my ears bleed, proper headphones make them sweat and
isolate other sounds far too well. (I do need to hear the phone ring
and such.)


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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 19:57:01 UTC
Permalink
snarlydwarf;468671 Wrote:
> I hate to inform you of this, but you simply do not exist, as there is
> no market for such a thing.

i doubt there is a big market, but popular or not, i think its
unnecessary.

snarlydwarf;468671 Wrote:
> Exactly. or sitting too close... it is very easy to corrupt the stereo
> effect.

sure, but i wasn't suggesting one always needed perfect stereo imaging
in order to enjoy a better experience. in other words, (all other
things being equal) a stereo sounds better to me even when i am not
getting the perfect stereo effect, than a mono player does. (and in
fact, mono sounds better to me when i use both ears, imagine that!)


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MrSinatra
2009-10-07 19:52:41 UTC
Permalink
you're not a bad guy. ;) i'm glad you're happy with it, although maybe
you need a bigger bedside table???


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DotSystem
2009-10-06 20:43:39 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;467924 Wrote:
> people should be able to express their frustrations, and do so in a way
> that isn't rude, altho rude is rather subjective.
>
> having said that i generally like the direction logitech is taking
> everything, and i do think one day it will be tivo-ish simple to use for
> most folks.
>
> what i do wish however, is that they would stop rollout of new clients
> for a [good long] while. what they should do is consider making a SBS
> piece of hardware, (which would really be helpful for providing a SBS
> testing baseline/benchmark), and regardless of if they do that or not,
> concentrate on killing off all the bugs in bugzilla.
>
> i track many bugs in bugzilla and to me, its just ridiculous which ones
> get attention and which ones don't, even after years and years. the new
> client rollout for instance has delayed the "new schema" work which when
> finished will quash (hopefully) a HUGE number of bugs.
>
> a lot of the bugs speak to basic functionality, which is implied to be
> working by the UI, but which isn't. enough new clients, get back to the
> basics and fundamentals and work on registered bugs.

Well stated.


--
DotSystem
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aubuti
2009-10-06 20:08:45 UTC
Permalink
WustrowO;467888 Wrote:
> There should be at least two platforms, one for audio-only players and
> another one for the new players with advanced display capabilities like
> the Touch. Logitech should have kept Squeezenetwork for audio-only
> players and build mysqueezebox for the new ones.
And where would that leave the SB Controller, which is a SqueezeOS
device with an LCD screen just like the SB Radio and SB Touch, even
though it is "old"?


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aubuti
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WustrowO
2009-10-06 20:56:09 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;467927 Wrote:
> And where would that leave the SB Controller, which is a SqueezeOS
> device with an LCD screen just like the SB Radio and SB Touch, even
> though it is "old"?

MySqueezeboxcontroller.com? :D

Seriously, the controller worked with Squeezenetwork.com, didn't it? ;)


--
WustrowO
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aubuti
2009-10-06 21:10:37 UTC
Permalink
WustrowO;467960 Wrote:
> MySqueezeboxcontroller.com? :D
>
> Seriously, the controller worked with Squeezenetwork.com, didn't it? ;)
Correct, but the "old" devices work fine with MySqueezebox.com. At
first I didn't understand your suggestion to have two parallel services
running (SN and MySB), as that seems incredibly unwieldy and would
generate more confusion than it resolves. But now I really don't
understand it because there doesn't seem to be any logic to which
devices you would point where.


--
aubuti
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WustrowO
2009-10-07 16:43:01 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;467972 Wrote:
> Correct, but the "old" devices work fine with MySqueezebox.com.

No, that's not exactly true. There are still problems with logging into
(subscripted) services and some items (links) on the box or/and the new
web "remote control" don't work correctly.


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WustrowO
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Phil Leigh
2009-10-07 17:03:52 UTC
Permalink
The reality - contrary to Mr. Sinatra's opinion - is that the Radio is
capable of supplying an average room with very listenable, fatigue free
sound. Yes it's not mega-loud, yes it doesn't go very low in the bass,
yes it's mono... but it does palpably work, in the same way that the
Tivoli Model One, a Grundig Yacht Boy 210 or Boom punch way above their
perceived weight.


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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aubuti
2009-10-07 17:35:22 UTC
Permalink
WustrowO;468524 Wrote:
> No, that's not exactly true. There are still problems with logging into
> (subscripted) services and some items (links) on the box or/and the new
> web "remote control" don't work correctly.
Well, some of those same problems exist with people using the "old"
devices on SN. Are you suggesting rolling back further than that? Yes,
you can find problems with any combination of hardware/software, but I
was merely contesting your assertion that the older devices _in_general_
do not work with MySB. My SB2s, SB3, Duets, and Boom work just fine with
MySB, including subscription services like Napster. I had one problem
with the MySB registration for the SB3, but that was sorted out same-day
with an email to support.


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WustrowO
2009-10-07 19:58:03 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;468579 Wrote:
> Well, some of those same problems exist with people using the "old"
> devices on SN. Are you suggesting rolling back further than that? Yes,
> you can find problems with any combination of hardware/software, but I
> was merely contesting your assertion that the older devices _in_general_
> do not work with MySB. My SB2s, SB3, Duets, and Boom work just fine with
> MySB, including subscription services like Napster. I had one problem
> with the MySB registration for the SB3, but that was sorted out same-day
> with an email to support.

That's fine for you ;) But you shouldn't ignore the fact that a lot of
people have problems with their "old" devices - which worked fine until
some days ago on Squeezenetwork. It's getting better now but some
problems still exist. Take a look around in this forum...

My suggestion was quite simple. Build a new site for the new devices
and keep the old site for the old devices for some time. The brave ones
may switch to new early, the other ones migrate after the usual
consolidation phase of a new site. I know it's too late now concerning
the switch to MySB - but maybe it's an idea for future updates. It's
reducing complexity...


--
WustrowO
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aubuti
2009-10-07 20:33:14 UTC
Permalink
WustrowO;468680 Wrote:
> That's fine for you ;) But you shouldn't ignore the fact that a lot of
> people have problems with their "old" devices - which worked fine until
> some days ago on Squeezenetwork. It's getting better now but some
> problems still exist. Take a look around in this forum...
>
> My suggestion was quite simple. Build a new site for the new devices
> and keep the old site for the old devices for some time. The brave ones
> may switch to new early, the other ones migrate after the usual
> consolidation phase of a new site. I know it's too late now concerning
> the switch to MySB - but maybe it's an idea for future updates. It's
> reducing complexity...
I'm not ignoring them, I just don't see the point of setting up a
completely parallel web site. Don't you think the staff are stretched
enough as it is? And I certainly don't see how that would reduce
complexity -- rather it would multiply it.

Please, give me a specific example of how an SB2 or SB3 does not work
with MySB. I am not denying that there are such problems, but sometimes
concrete examples are much more enlightening than vague generalities.


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aubuti
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Ikabob
2009-10-07 20:49:35 UTC
Permalink
I am using the SB3,the Boom and the radio. Do not get me wrong because I
really like the SB system. But , since the switch to 7.4 etc....I have
posted this but I have no responses back and since you, aubuti, seem to
know what is going on and you seem to want to improve things....I will
ask you:


When I add the radio station's common "call letters" to the playlist
(on SB3,Boom) after a while the common names either totally disappear
from the playlist or else the common call letters are replaced by a long
list of letters and numbers that mean nothing to me....maybe the URL.
This, of course, makes it impossible to identify which stations are
being selected. When I do select one of the numbers , sometime the
common name does reappear....but it is a guessing game to select what I
am actually looking for. This is a new problem and was not like this in
the previous version 7.3. Can this be fixed and are the devs who are
working on fixes know that this is a problem? Any suggestions? Anyone
else have this problem?


This is very inconvenient not knowing which station I am going to get.
Thanks.


--
Ikabob
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aubuti
2009-10-07 21:00:22 UTC
Permalink
Ikabob;468708 Wrote:
> I am using the SB3,the Boom and the radio. Do not get me wrong because I
> really like the SB system. But , since the switch to 7.4 etc....I have
> posted this but I have no responses back and since you, aubuti, seem to
> know what is going on and you seem to want to improve things....I will
> ask you:
>
>
> When I add the radio station's common "call letters" to the playlist
> (on SB3,Boom) after a while the common names either totally disappear
> from the playlist or else the common call letters are replaced by a long
> list of letters and numbers that mean nothing to me....maybe the URL.
> This, of course, makes it impossible to identify which stations are
> being selected. When I do select one of the numbers , sometime the
> common name does reappear....but it is a guessing game to select what I
> am actually looking for. This is a new problem and was not like this in
> the previous version 7.3. Can this be fixed and are the devs who are
> working on fixes know that this is a problem? Any suggestions? Anyone
> else have this problem?
>
>
> This is very inconvenient not knowing which station I am going to get.
> Thanks.
Hmm, I put my favorite radio stations in Favorites instead of in
playlists and I haven't experienced that kind of renaming/corruption in
Favorites (knock wood). So I don't have much help to offer you. Maybe
you could post an example of such a playlist, preferably one clean one
and then the same one after it has gotten mangled.

I'm curious: why do you use playlists instead of Favorites for radio
stations? Does it have to do with your posts a while back about radio
stations cutting out on you? Also, are you connecting via SbS, or is it
a direct connection to MySB (ie, no local server in the equation)?


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aubuti
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pippin
2009-10-06 20:12:55 UTC
Permalink
IMHO most of the issues stem from three areas:
- Teething problems because this was such a big change and you have to
release it _some_ time. You can do beta programs as long as you like,
you never find all the issues. These will be sorted out.
- Changing a few paradigms which confuses users who are experienced in
the old way of doing things. This will go away, too.
- Some things are simply not yet fully there. E.g. SBS/MySB
autoswitching. This will eventually come, I believe but it's too huge an
effort to stem with one release.

When I first saw the "Apps" scheme during the beta phase (as well as
about everybody else) I though: heck, what a confusion is this?

NOW, having used it for a few weeks I believe it's actually a very
promising approach and I hope they integrate more stuff into this, e.g.
Extras.

The same holds true for Touch-To-Play I believe although I have to
admit that I have always been promoting this (as iPeng users know :)
Some of them against their own will) so my experience here probably
doesn't count.


--
pippin

---
see iPeng, the Squeezebox iPhone remote, at penguinlovesmusic.com
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toby10
2009-10-06 15:48:01 UTC
Permalink
AppleTV, PS3, Xbox, and others have been quite successful in the
"multi-media" platform. But one of the most common reasons people do
not choose these platforms for music is because they do not wish to run
their 400 watt TV simply to select their next song. :)

There are other reasons to be sure (lacking Squeeze type flexibility,
minimal codec support, poor audio outputs, etc..).

The swiss army knife approach to any multi-tasking always comes with
drawbacks, particularly for audio & video. Better to concentrate in one
area, do it well, and keep it separate. This is precisely where the SB
products come in to play in relation to music, just as the mentioned PCH
comes in to play for video. If you want the best and most flexible of
both, buy the best for each separately. If you want the "all-in-one"
solution, be prepared for mediocre results.....somewhere.


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Goodsounds
2009-10-06 18:02:18 UTC
Permalink
mherger;467591 Wrote:
> > If Logitech really wants this thing to get big they need to think
> > 'toaster' or as close as they can get to that type of deivce.
>
> What customers seem to forget is that they don't want a toaster. It's
> not a standalone device like a toaster or even an iPod. It's a
> networking device. But with the ease of a toaster? Some users really
> want the online music, even Facebook and Flickr integration. That's our
> biggest challenge: Hide the huge complexity the user wants from the
> user.

Howard's views are insightful, and perspectives like his deserve more
attention by the company.

The SB owners and potential owners I know don't want "huge complexity"
as Michael says. In fact, the existing complexity is so off putting as
to scare away customers, I've seen that myself with friends. Hiding it
won't do much. I've experienced far more people being turned off than
turned on by the products' technical features.

Let's strip out opinions and just look at the market. With most
consumer products, the biggest sellers are mostly plug and play. Or, can
be used that way. Even with complicated home theater systems that
challenge most owners, buyers pay for someone else to do the setup and
then they simply turn it off and on and change channels or program
sources. People don't fiddle with or obsess about these things - they
set them up and use them. Period. Like a toaster.

Let the programmers and geek types on these forums argue about how to
stream music to their skateboards, or whether to move the couch two feet
to the right to absorb a low frequency sound, or how to use their SB to
see who's at the front door. It's laughable to me but it's harmless and
who cares. But don't let these people continue to have a
disproportionate influence on SB product direction and features as
they've historically had. It had led to the wrong features and bad
decisions.

By listening to the wrong voices, the company misses the mainstream
market targets they should be aiming for. Positioning the products for
non- technical people will lead to greater success. By selling musical
toasters.


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Michael Herger
2009-10-06 18:08:13 UTC
Permalink
> The SB owners and potential owners I know don't want "huge complexity"
> as Michael says.

My using "complexity" probably was a bit confusing. Sure, nobody wants complexity. But the feature set you want can cause a great deal of complexity. If you don't know about this, then at least we partially succeeded :-). Using a networked device already carries along quite a bit of complexity compared to a FM radio.
Phil Leigh
2009-10-06 18:12:59 UTC
Permalink
The problem with toasters is that they are notoriously hard to
upgrade...

Want more slots? - muffin or croisant warming? Buy a new toaster...

The fact is that the SB products are not intrinsically hard to setup or
use - PROVIDED some basic rules are followed. Somewhat regretably, the
desire to embrace every file and tag format, every hardware platform,
every network topology etc has backfired to some extent - yes it has
superb cross-platform capabilities, but at the cost of an increasingly
complex codebase and development/testing cycle.

I believe that the Touch is the beginning of the end of the old model.
Maybe we can look forward to standard file types, tags etc. I know we
will lose some features with this approach, but it does offer the
promise of the ultimate toaster...


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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Howard Passman
2009-10-06 18:27:22 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;467850 Wrote:
> The problem with toasters is that they are notoriously hard to
> upgrade...
>

Yep, they only have two purposes...making toast or taking a bath with
it after the latest SB upgrade :-)(Do not attemp this. We are
professional bathers in a closed tub...)

Most folks don't buy devices with the thought of doing much upgrading.
Generally, a current feature set is attracting them to the product.
They really aren't thinking ahead. A good example is a PC. You buy it
for your forseeable needs. After you outgrow it you could upgrade it,
but it really isn't pratical. To get the processor you want you need a
new MOBO and memory. At that point you might as well just buy the new
one anyway. Logitech is doing the same thing. Although the SB1 and SB2
still work, they can't be updated to do what even the boom will do. So
you keep it around for a back up, give it to your little brother or bury
it in a box in your attic. Not much different than a toaster.

Howard


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Can I go home now?
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Phil Leigh
2009-10-06 18:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Howard Passman;467859 Wrote:
> Yep, they only have two purposes...making toast or taking a bath with it
> after the latest SB upgrade :-)(Do not attemp this. We are professional
> bathers in a closed tub...)
>
> Most folks don't buy devices with the thought of doing much upgrading.
> Generally, a current feature set is attracting them to the product.
> They really aren't thinking ahead. A good example is a PC. You buy it
> for your forseeable needs. After you outgrow it you could upgrade it,
> but it really isn't pratical. To get the processor you want you need a
> new MOBO and memory. At that point you might as well just buy the new
> one anyway. Logitech is doing the same thing. Although the SB1 and SB2
> still work, they can't be updated to do what even the boom will do. So
> you keep it around for a back up, give it to your little brother or bury
> it in a box in your attic. Not much different than a toaster.
>
> Howard

That's kind of my point - the SB is moving steadily away from a "roll
your own" component architecture to a more integrated one (but retaining
its open API's). I think this is a GOOD THING...now. Things have moved
on in the last 7 years.

I think we are only 1 more generation away from seeing this become a
reality.

If the Touch could run a web server...


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio
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Howard Passman
2009-10-06 18:33:15 UTC
Permalink
:-)


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: sb1.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8335|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Can I go home now?
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radish
2009-10-04 04:34:05 UTC
Permalink
bluegaspode;465641 Wrote:
>
> All other people that come here (some properly complaining and also
> many using the wrong words) were 'forced' to an update.
> - their controller asked them to do so and if they didn't it asked them
> later again and they didn't know why
> - their boom just upgraded automatically when they surfed to a certain
> menu
> - ...
>

That only happens if you use SN. I'm still running 7.3.3 on my main
system (and 7.4 on the test server) and none of my controllers (or
Booms) have asked for an update. They would if I switched to SN, but I
don't (as I don't need to). The reality is you do have to upgrade SC to
7.4 if you're using a Radio, and it makes sense to if you regularly
switch between SC and SN (as otherwise you'll be upping and downing the
fw all day). So yes there are people who will have been prompted for an
update, and I assume the majority of them are fine (as I've been running
7.4 fine in test for ages), but it does suck when you're one of the
unlucky ones. It's certainly not everyone though.

Speaking as a 7.4 tester, stuff obviously got through the cracks, we'll
try better next time :)


--
radish

'HELP ME RAISE MONEY FOR CHILDREN'S CANCER RESEARCH!'
(HTTP://WWW.ADAMREEVE.COM/24IN24/)
http://www.last.fm/user/polymeric
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pablolie
2009-10-03 16:55:34 UTC
Permalink
arztde;465500 Wrote:
> Just to stop it. A good solution can be reactivate the old
> squeezenetwork and stop the automatic firmwareupdate to 7.4. Let the
> customors of Logitech decide, when they like to change to 7.4. A lot
> have stable running systems.
>
> Just my 2 cents.

I 200% agree. Support old revision for a while. Only force upgrades to
utterly stable and tested and proven releases.


--
pablolie

...pablo
Server: Shuttle X27 - Ubuntu 9.04 - SBS 7.4
Sources: SB3 (3), SB Boom (3), Duet, Accuphase DP65v CD
Amplifier: Accuphase E306v
Loudspeakers: Ceeroy 3-way tower (tuned)
Headphones: Grado SR-1
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DotSystem
2009-10-03 18:39:16 UTC
Permalink
pablolie;465854 Wrote:
> I 200% agree. Support old revision for a while. Only force upgrades to
> utterly stable and tested and proven releases.

By 'support' I hope you mean applying fixes (maintenance releases) to
7.3 for previously identified unresolved problems such as ghost alarms
(Boom) and out-of-sync playlist artwork (Duet).


--
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pablolie
2009-10-04 06:24:49 UTC
Permalink
DotSystem;465925 Wrote:
> By 'support' I hope you mean applying fixes (maintenance releases) ...

Actually, just leaving it active and making it a choice for a while
would suffice as far as I am concerned. I guess going forward that means
no longer using mySB.com if that is what I really want...


--
pablolie

...pablo
Server: Shuttle X27 - Ubuntu 9.04 - SBS 7.4
Sources: SB3 (3), SB Boom (3), Duet, Accuphase DP65v CD
Amplifier: Accuphase E306v - Creek OBH21/22
Loudspeakers: Ceeroy 3-way tower (tuned) - Audioengine 5/S8 - Acoustic
Energy Aego M
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