Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?

[dustinsterk]

Hello,
With all of the recent developments with Logitech and the end of the
squeezebox line I feel as this community has been unfairly ignored.
This community of audiophiles, software developers, engineers, DIY
builders, and lovers of music is very strong. Many of you have been
users of the squeezebox products since slimdevices. With Triode's EDO
and squeezelite developments, the community behind Vortexbox (Agillis),
Erland, Pippin, and all other developers/groups and enthusiasts that
dedicate all of their free time to this product, I have been thinking we
should start a crowd (community) funded product similar to the Olive One
to develop and build a squeezebox replacement.

Sure, the Pi, Pogoplug and other hardware have bits and pieces that we
can hack into a working player but it is NOT what we really want or
need. I would say as a community, this forum has more experience and
insight into what the next product should look like than any other up
and coming product (Olive One). We not only have ideas, but users that
are willing to invest time and effort for no other reason then to better
an already wonderful product.

So my question to everyone is simple......if there was a community
funded project, would you invest your time? Would you invest
monetarily? We all have different strengths and as a community I think
we could really design one hell of a product.

Maybe I am wrong, but I truly do feel other users want to see this
continue. If you do, please post what you would be willing to
contribute. Personally I would be willing to help in anyway possible.

--Dustin


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[JJZolx]

I just can't imagine anyone willing to volunteer that much time and
energy into building such a thing without realizing some monetary
compensation. You're talking about something _way_ above and beyond the
(albeit very impressive) software efforts put forth by third party
software developers. System design, circuit board layout, prototyping...
wow. I don't see anyone doing that for grins. And it's not really
something that 100 people can pitch in on, even if they all had the
skills. There probably aren't more than one or two people remaining with
an interest in Squeezebox who actually have the ability to do the system
and circuit board design necessary to create a real replacement.


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[dustinsterk]

Post by JJZolx
I just can't imagine anyone willing to volunteer that much time and
energy into building such a thing without realizing some monetary
compensation. You're talking about something _way_ above and beyond the
(albeit very impressive) software efforts put forth by third party
software developers. System design, circuit board layout, prototyping...
wow. I don't see anyone doing that for grins. And it's not really
something that 100 people can pitch in on, even if they all had the
skills. There probably aren't more than one or two people remaining with
an interest in Squeezebox who actually have the ability to do the system
and circuit board design necessary to create a real replacement.

I do agree that without financial compensation some may say whats the
point. I also agree that there are a limited few that have the
background to tackle such a task. But when I look at all the talent
here and other DIY sites (head-fi, diytube, diyaudio, diyforums, etc) I
know we could find the resources to put something together.

I guess a better question would be does anyone have interest in such a
venture?


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[erland]

For any developers or hardware engineers with proven previous experience
in these areas who are really serious/interested about doing something
like this, I would also encourage you to join the private developers
mailing list which we setup earlier:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?96463-Announce-Private-mailng-list-forum-for-developer-discussions
Reason simply being that some things like this is going be easier to
discuss in a smaller group than in a public forum.

The mailing list will be limited to those who in some way or another
have shown what they can accomplish related to Squeezebox, typically
this means people who have developed plugins/applets or third party
hardware solutions. At this stage it's not for people who can just help
testing or provide feedback.

There is currently no community effort going on in this mailing list,
I'm mainly just trying to get people who can do something and is willing
to do it to join it so we have a more private place to discuss it in
more detail.


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[erland]

Post by JJZolx
I just can't imagine anyone willing to volunteer that much time and
energy into building such a thing without realizing some monetary
compensation. You're talking about something _way_ above and beyond the
(albeit very impressive) software efforts put forth by third party
software developers. System design, circuit board layout, prototyping...
wow. I don't see anyone doing that for grins. And it's not really
something that 100 people can pitch in on, even if they all had the
skills. There probably aren't more than one or two people remaining with
an interest in Squeezebox who actually have the ability to do the system
and circuit board design necessary to create a real replacement.

For a purely software project done on the spare time it would have to be
at least 3-4 persons who all have the architecture/design skills and not
just simple coding skills. It's one thing to provide a patch or edit a
source code file, it's a completely different thing to architect/design
a new system from a blank sheet of paper.
For a hardware project I imagine that you would have to add a few
additional people to handle that part, one would be a minimum but for
long time survival that part would probably also require 2-4 people if
it's done on the spare time.
On top of this you would have to have some testers but those are easy to
find around here, the challenge is just to make them to structured
testing and not just random testing all over the place.

It can't be a lot more people than this because then it gets too crowded
and the people who know what to do end up spending the time trying to
explain to other people what to do and how to do it.
It can't be less people if it's done as a spare time project because
then the project will halt when the family situation changes for one of
the persons and he/she no longer can spend time on the project, I have
seen exactly this issue in the SMD project where we were 3 core
contributors and that was enough as long as we all had enough spare
time, when one disappeared everything more or less halted. If it's a
full time project you can have less people but not in a spare time
project which people can maximum spend 10 hours/week on.

I also believe it needs to be a company behind it for it to work on
longer terms, doesn't have to be an existing company, can be a new one,
but there needs to be a business aspect else it will never survive on
longer terms. Most people enjoy to contribute for free a few years but
eventually (with a few exceptions) most are eventually going to want
some kind of continuous economical compensation if they need to offer
all their spare time for the project. Some are even only going to want
to continue working on it long term if they can have it has their day
job.

I'm fairly sure there are enough people with the right skills in this
community to create something new. There isn't enough remaining if you
purely look at those who have done plugins/applets and third party
hardware packaging, but I've realized that there are a lot of people
lurking around here who have a lot of experience from their day jobs
even if they have never done any spare time work related to Squeezebox
to show their abilities. The question is just how to attract them to do
something on their spare time and if they have the ability/willingness
to work together as a team.

The hardest people to find around here seems to be people with non
technical skills, like graphical design and drawing, and that's also
something that's definitely needed if you want to accomplish a consumer
product and not just a DIY project.

All this makes me think that it's not unrealistic at all that something
new is going to be released from someone in this community, the question
is more about when it will happen, who will be part of it and if it will
be released through a company or community effort. I also know there are
a companies doing products in this market segment who wants to take a
part of the cake Logitech has left behind. So overall, I think the next
6-12 months might be pretty interested in the music streaming market, I
just hope that Sonos doesn't get too strong so it will be too hard for
someone else to establish a new platform.


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[Mnyb]

You may need some CAD skills prototyping and -design- skills for a
product .

Prototype can lurk in an over the counter generic box or a shoebox
(shoebox lid can work as temporary circiut board to :) just punch holes
for component legs ) , but to actually sell it to more than 100 people
it has to be cosmetically acceptable . Imo the SB3 is a classic it have
never looked better , transporter is ok so but it align a little bit to
audiophile design aesthetic (if something looks like a steam powered
difference engine with computer control it sells in those quarters )
.SB2 looks like a modem . Touch is ok as it resembles SB3 but it could
improve a bit .

Prototype boards etched at home is one thing a multilayer smd pcb thats
possible to manufascture probably demands skills and software i haven’t
heard of :) but sure there are such people here , there sure is some
kind of file you send to chines plant and order a test batch of 10000
boards ,just joking but there probably is challenge to have some scale
of economics in small series .

And tight control of the design spec who should be detailed and in
control , the audiophiles would discuss dac chips until the end of days
:)

But on the positive side it could have some unique design specifics ,
for example fpga based filters the forum has such a designer (hello John
) with uncomercial tweaks like headromm for intersample overs (no
specman ship ) .

It could also build heavilly on squeezeplay fitting it to more memory
and cpu and have some if its bugs fixed and added flexibility .

I foresee that a debate would be screen or no screen . I'm for no screen
in the first "community squeezebox" as it removes all design headaches
of an UI and removes components that probably are cheap and common in
large scale products like phones but I doubt the prices are any good if
you want 200pcs for a small null series .


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[JJZolx]

If you're an audiophile looking for highest sound quality, an external
async USB DAC will give you better fidelity than an internal one in
anything other than a very expensive Squeezebox replacement. So, without
a screen and a touch and/or IR user interface, what real need is there
for a replacement, when just about any computer with a USB port can
today function as Squeezebox?

And if you're not an audiophile, a computer with onboard sound or sound
card will suffice. If you accept that a device without user I/O is
sufficient, then there's little need for a true Squeezebox. Except
perhaps for better synching of zone players in a multi-zone system.
However, this also requires that such devices be relatively inexpensive,
which will be an almost impossible goal for a community project that
won't sell more than a couple hundred units.

I've said in the past that an established audio company might be a good
candidate for producing a Squeezebox capable player. Probably the
biggest obstacle to that, however, is the current state of the server
software and the astronomical costs of both supporting it and of
maintaining it.

Bottom line: It's just not going to happen, no matter how you slice it.


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[Triode]

I'm not sure whether we can turn this into a community product, but my
personal view is that an effective Squeezebox replacement for the
community can be made from a small existing arm based device + an
external usb dac. This means all the audio engineering can be part of
the dac and you can spend from $5 to $5000 based on your preference....

The device itself is probably based on something already available such
as an android stick, raspberry pi or other such device - perhaps we need
to settle on one or a small number of recommended devices and package
for them. The one thing that most devices have now with hdmi, so a user
interface using hdmi + control over that is probably required/sensible.
This is not a mass market consumer product, but it gets us to a very
viable solution for community enthusiasts... (and focusses much of the
effort on software and packaging rather than hardware design and the
necessary volumes this brings)

Squeezelite part of my steps in this direction. I'd like to look at UI
solutions, perhaps integration with XBMC or alternative user interfaces
hdmi - any takers?


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[epoch1970]

perhaps we need to settle on one or a small number of recommended
devices and package for them.

Certainly.
Who would guess "sata_sil.slow_down=1" is a solution to audio glitches ?


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[dustinsterk]

Post by Triode
I'm not sure whether we can turn this into a community product, but my
personal view is that an effective Squeezebox replacement for the
community can be made from a small existing arm based device + an
external usb dac. This means all the audio engineering can be part of
the dac and you can spend from $5 to $5000 based on your preference....
The device itself is probably based on something already available such
as an android stick, raspberry pi or other such device - perhaps we need
to settle on one or a small number of recommended devices and package
for them. The one thing that most devices have now with hdmi, so a user
interface using hdmi + control over that is probably required/sensible.
This is not a mass market consumer product, but it gets us to a very
viable solution for community enthusiasts... (and focusses much of the
effort on software and packaging rather than hardware design and the
necessary volumes this brings)
Squeezelite part of my steps in this direction. I'd like to look at UI
solutions, perhaps integration with XBMC or alternative user interfaces
hdmi - any takers?

It appears the consensus of most is that a "new device" built from the
ground up would be too time consuming and possibly the market to the
masses is not there. So to Triodes point as well as others, what about
looking into existing ARM based products and pairing them with a nice
external DAC for the use with squeezelite?

I have done some research on new and upcoming devices. I found the
following:

Allwinner A10 (still under development):
http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/

Cubieboard (just now shipping):
http://cubieboard.org/

Hackberry:
https://www.miniand.com/products/Hackberry%20A10%20Developer%20Board

Other "set top" products that could work:

http://dx.com/p/mini-android-2-3-hd-1080p-network-media-player-w-wi-fi-hdmi-usb-av-tf-blue-134679
http://dx.com/p/compact-hd-1080p-2-5-sata-hdd-media-player-with-hdmi-usb-host-sd-av-out-coax-black-57177
http://dx.com/p/mele-1080p-android-2-3-internet-tv-set-top-box-w-wifi-optical-3-x-usb-hdmi-av-lan-sd-119913


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[epoch1970]

Well I didn't look a *all* the links above.

I'd like to see a platform with clean audio out (SPDIF first and USB
second. USB audio is too finicky IMHO) and an array of ports that allows
to add peripherals.

- I would go for a VFD or (large) e-paper screen+controller in an
instant (or show me a square 12" PC monitor.)
- Possibility to integrate home automation (IR Blaster and more)
- I think I'd like to see how a second line out (IR Blaster) works
with a vocal UI (I guess I should test w/ squeezeslave for that); I like
the RFID tag reader idea ('thread'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97891-Controlling-Squeezebox-equipment-by-RFID-(Blog-in-German-language).)

- Some processor capable of computing audio room correction ?
- A local alarm clock module, capability to run on batteries,
possibility to integrate/control a digital amp, line in support
(Radio/Boom replacement)
- Automagic wireless mesh networking (control channel at least) ?
- The all-important iThing integration (to the extent of what's
possible)

Given my current experience with the PC engines Alix, I think mixing
server capability with player capability is difficult (I/O and CPU
spikes.) A recommended ~5W server package (preferably with sata/e-sata
capability) could go along the player package.

The RasPi can do many of the things above, AFAIK, and should have one
interesting characteristic, same as "pro" devices: a longer lifecycle
compared to consumer devices. I don't think it is reasonable to choose a
platform that will fade away in 12 months, as many consumer products do.


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[erland]

Post by JJZolx
've said in the past that an established audio company might be a good
candidate for producing a Squeezebox capable player. Probably the
biggest obstacle to that, however, is the current state of the server
software and the astronomical costs of both supporting it and of
maintaining it.

Is the maintenance cost really that bad ?
How many full time developers have Logitech had during the last 2-3
years working with maintenance that really had to be done ?
To me it kind of feels like most of the work during last years have
either been various kind of refactoring and Revue related stuff which
was doomed before it started. Looking back two years in time, it feels
like there have been less than one full time developer working on the
server in average. There were obviously a bit more during development of
the Touch, but it's pretty normal that more resources is needed when you
develop a new product which requires big changes.

SBS 7.5.3 is about 2 years old, what "must have" functionality has been
done in the server after that ?
My feeling is the cost isn't really about things that had to be done,
it's more related to bad management and prioritization.
Are you sure the UPnP server software of your choice required less
maintenance and support during the last two years ?

Support is another matter, but I've got the feeling that this community
has handled a lot of support issues and only a few people have actually
taken the time to call the official Logitech support even though we have
tried to push more people to do it during the last years.

However, generally I agree that the server software probably don't have
a future outside Logitech, but Logitech could still maintain the server
and license the ability for third parties to produce players. This will
of course not happen because Logitech is really ha hardware company and
not a software company, so it probably never really made sense to them
to let third parties produce the hardware.


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[erland]

Post by JJZolx
Bottom line: It's just not going to happen, no matter how you slice it.

Depends on what you mean with Squeezebox replacement.

1. DIY products is/will happen, we are already seeing this now, but for
these we are likely taking about very small volumes, maybe a few hundred
devices or something similar. Someone might try to package one
pre-installed, but it's unlikely to get any volumes as long as it isn't
packaged in a nice case with physical design suitable for the living
room.

2. Squeezebox compatible hardware players in a consumer attractive
package is unlikely to happen, mainly because nobody is maintaining the
server and Logitech will likely block such player from mysqueezebox.com
as soon as it has enough volumes to increase the load on
mysqueezebox.com. On top of this such player can't advertize support for
online streaming services without an agreement with Logitech because
Logitech might shutdown mysqueezebox.com in two years and I would be
really surprised if they would be interested in license mysqueezebox.com
usage to a third party player provider.

3. Consumer attractive players with similar functionality as Squeezebox
but not compatible with the Squeezebox ecosystem is also likely going to
happen, if there is a need and people are willing to pay, someone will
usually provide a suitable product, that's how the market works, it's
just a matter of time.

So basically if someone in the community wants to do something, it needs
to be alternative 1 or 3, where 1 will be useful for geeks/enthusiasts
but not for the masses.


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[froth]

Although I believe there is lots of talent here on the boards that could
be invested in a project like this, I think the reality is that there is
a difference between community build of a product versus the Olive
approach of a crowd funded product.

With that you need a company that will do everything from hiring the
right people to do the design and build out of the product and as well
as initiate all the necessary marketing and sales plans and objectives.

I for one am monitoring the Olive One product and project carefully. I
see it as a potential replacement down the road for my squeeze
environment.

It will all come down to the execution and delivery to market.

Sure there are some things I see that I would like different with Olive
One. The biggest is a headless product. I for one cant see wanting to
have a big circle device in every room. The touch was more the
footprint that I liked and even that just a receiver is all I wanted in
some rooms.

But I like that larger display for the wife factor. Even though I have
spent hours with my wife using Ipeng she still get's it mixed up from
time to time. What I end up doing is syncing a few devices in the house
to a boom I have and then doing presets on the buttons for the 4 or 5
music sources she likes.


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[JohnSwenson]

Hi guys,
I want in on this! I have been thinking a lot about it over the last few
months. I am well accomplished at the hardware design part of this. I'm
not sure most of you are aware of this but I do part time consulting for
high end hiFi companies wanting to get into digitaal audio, I have lots
of hardware experience doing just what this project is about and making
it into products for low volume production.

There seems to be an assumption that you need very high volumes to get
low prices, this is not really the case. You need high volumes to get
REALLY low price, but medium range prices is can be had for fairly low
volumes. For example something along the complexity of the Touch main
board, can be manufactured for around $125 in 25 quantity, thats board,
parts and assembly. That does NOT include the case, full assembly etc,
just the board. At 50 quantity you can get down to $100 a board.

I have done designs using off the shelf boards and ones that I have done
the whole thing from scratch, my current thinking is that for more than
a couple systems it actually winds up being cheaper to do the whole
thing from scratch, that way you get EXACTLY what you want. When using
an off the shelf board you have to try and shoehorn your design into
sombody elses vision, which rarely matches yours exactly.

For example, some people around here have mentioned things like IR
remotes, if your chosen existing board doesn't have the capability, you
either live without it or you have to add a board that does it, and
figure out how to connect that into some port on the existing board.
When you do the whole thing yourself it is MUCH easier to add things
like that directly to the main board.

When doing it yourself you have a wide range of options available for
including in the device, that would be very difficult to add to an
existing board. For example as has been mentioned having FPGA based
filters is something that is easy to add to our own board, and adds very
little cost. I can easily put in a VERY high quality S/PDIF interface
that will be better than just about anything out there, or even a USB
output optimized for audio use.

I have been doing systems like these for many years now and the biggest
time sinc has always been the UI. Since the SB line already has good
external UI options, I think it makes more sense to design a product to
be a black box (but with a web server for configuration etc so you get
away from the Duet problems). Having a display and interface along the
lines of the Touch seems to me to double or tripple the complexity of
the project.

I'm a little torn on one aspect of this, my passion is for very high
quality DACs, having done systems similar to this several times I CAN
say that I can do a better job for less money building very good DACs
into the project than you can get by buying external DACs. It doesn't
HAVE to be an either or. I can do a two board system, one board has the
main guts and digital audio interfaces (S/PDIF USB) and another board
that plugs in which has the DACs (it does NOT connect to the S/PDIF or
USB). So if you want to spend the extra $400 you can get audio quality
that will out perform external DACs costing many thousands. It is just
so much easier to do a really good job of a DAC if you can build it into
the architecture of the main system.

Things I am NOT good at: industrial design, please don't ask me to
design a really good looking case for this!

John S.


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[JJZolx]

John, do you have experience designing a computer that includes a DAC?
Or would the idea be to take some reference ARM design and basically
design and build a DAC on the same board or on a daughter board?

Than what about the writing of firmware? Would you handle that as well?

Would you see this as basically mimicking a Touch, and then use the Lua
code from that product?


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[erland]

Post by JJZolx
Would you see this as basically mimicking a Touch, and then use the Lua
code from that product?

For a headless box there isn't any need to take any lua code from the
Touch.

At the moment the easiest would be: Linux based OS + Squeezelite (or
squeezeslave)
In the future this can be adapted to: Linux based OS + the player
software of your choice

As long as it's Linux based and is a headless device, there is no reason
to bring in the whole Touch lua based firmware which would introduce all
kinds of copyright related complication since icons and similar things
isn't freely re-distributable. As long as we don't have a display on the
device it's much better to base it on something more lightweight, like
Squeezelite. This way it's also just the player related code that have
to be adapted if we want to use the box with another system in the
future, like turning it into a AirPlay receiver, UPnP renderer or even a
completely new system with similar features as the Squeezebox but
independent from Logitech.

Having a web server for configuration should be a piece of cake, there
are plenty of people around here that can help implementing that.

Some drivers would probably have to be implemented, but as long as you
choose chipsets which have Linux support I suspect most of it is already
available so it's more a matter of compiling/packaging them in suitable
way.

Having a display on the box would be attractive and so would IR support
be, but since a UI adds a lot of complexity on the software side (and
possibility also on hardware side) I would skip the display in the first
iteration. If you want to make the hardware future proof, it might be
reasonable to add a HDMI output so it in the future will be possible to
add video drivers and output a image on a TV or external display, I'm
just not sure if this would introduce a lot of extra complexity on the
hardware side. If it introduce a lot of extra complexity it might be
better to advice users to get an old used smart phone/tablet and put it
in a docking station and use that as the display together with a
suitable smartphone/tablet app.


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[chill]

Post by JohnSwenson
Hi guys,
I want in on this!

Great news - I can't have been the only one to think "this sounds like a
job for John Swenson" when Dustin posted his original suggestion :). A
version of the Duet Receiver, with a web interface and the option of a
top quality DAC, seems like an excellent way to get started. Count me
in for a bit of 'community funding'.


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[garym]

Post by chill
Great news - I can't have been the only one to think "this sounds like a
job for John Swenson" when Dustin posted his original suggestion :). A
version of the Duet Receiver, with a web interface and the option of a
top quality DAC, seems like an excellent way to get started. Count me
in for a bit of 'community funding'.

+1000


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[erland]

Post by JohnSwenson
When doing it yourself you have a wide range of options available for
including in the device, that would be very difficult to add to an
existing board. For example as has been mentioned having FPGA based
filters is something that is easy to add to our own board, and adds very
little cost. I can easily put in a VERY high quality S/PDIF interface
that will be better than just about anything out there, or even a USB
output optimized for audio use.

Having S/PDIF interface will make it more attractive to a lot of people.
There are a lot of people who already have an amplifier in their
listening room, being able to just connect the device to one of the
digital inputs of the amplifier will make it a lot easier than forcing
everyone to acquire an external USB DAC. Making it easy for more people
to use it is going to be important if you like to get more volumes in
the future, with only support for USB I'm afraid you are going to be
restricted to selling it to geeks and audiophiles.

Post by JohnSwenson
I'm a little torn on one aspect of this, my passion is for very high
quality DACs, having done systems similar to this several times I CAN
say that I can do a better job for less money building very good DACs
into the project than you can get by buying external DACs. It doesn't
HAVE to be an either or. I can do a two board system, one board has the
main guts and digital audio interfaces (S/PDIF USB) and another board
that plugs in which has the DACs (it does NOT connect to the S/PDIF or
USB). So if you want to spend the extra $400 you can get audio quality
that will out perform external DACs costing many thousands. It is just
so much easier to do a really good job of a DAC if you can build it into
the architecture of the main system.

For someone who is satisfied with the quality of the DAC in the Touch,
how much price difference would it be between a board without a DAC and
a board with a DAC with similar quality as the Squeezebox Touch ?
If we assume the low volume scenario, are we talking about $400 extra or
is it a lot less ?

I suspect a built-in DAC is mainly critical for people who want to
connect the device to powered speakers, if you already have an external
amplifier that's likely going to have digital inputs so you can just use
the S/PDIF output. Based on this, I think the DAC either have to be an
optional part for audiophiles (as you suggested) who aren't satisfied
with the DAC in their external amplifier, or if it's included on the
standard board it would have to be something which doesn't increase the
price too much since its main purpose would be to be able to attract
users who want to connect it to powered speakers where top notch audio
quality isn't as critical as in the main listening room.


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[JJZolx]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I see little reason to build a
displayless SB replacement without an internal DAC and analog out.
Otherwise, the only thing it such a device might have over the current
DIY solutions built on PCs with USB output is a high quality S/PDIF out.

I would see the necessary I/O as:

- analog L/R
- optical S/PDIF
- coaxial S/PDIF
- USB
- ethernet
- wifi

Plus (ideally):

- IR input for basic playback control: volume, skip, play, pause,
repeat, shuffle

Then I'd say leave open the possibility of some kind of USB display by
adding an additional USB port. With this, there could possibly be a full
UI developed at some point, as long as support existed at the server.

Which brings up the issue of... branching the server.


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[JJZolx]

Almost forgot:

If there's no IR input then there must be a reset switch of some kind
that can perform a factory reset.

With IR input, you could resort to the awkward SB method of resetting by
pulling the power plug and holding some random button on the remote
while you plug the power back in. Or, maybe just build the first SB with
a real power switch. Even with one, the reset switch would still be
welcome.


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[erland]

Post by JJZolx
Otherwise, the only thing it such a device might have over the current
DIY solutions built on PCs with USB output is a high quality S/PDIF out.

I suspect we are still talking about a DIY solution or possibly a
pre-packaged DIY solution, so far I haven't seen any indication in this
thread that makes me think it will reach the masses. To reach the masses
you really need multiple type of devices, at minimum one optimized for
connection to an external amplifier and one with built-in speakers
suitable for kitchen/bedroom/bathroom kind of environment.

To reach the masses you also need to reach the shelf in the stores, but
that's a different topic so let's not bring that into the discussion
yet.

Post by JJZolx
Which brings up the issue of... branching the server.

Which would be a much bigger task, especially if we want to do it the
right way and not violate license/copyrights from Logitech and other
companies which own the redistribution rights. It's easy to do it if you
ignore the legal problems which violating the license/copyright can
cause and ignore Windows users which want the exe binaries, but doing so
doesn't seem like a long term solution to me. However, having said that,
it's certainly doable, the question is just if it's worth the trouble
and I'm skeptical if there are enough people in the community who would
be willing to do the necessary development/maintenance work for free on
longer terms.

As I posted earlier in the thread:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97881-Community-Funded-Squeezebox-Replacement-Would-you-be-interested&p=733887&viewfull=1#post733887
I personally still believe something that relies on LMS or even
mysqueezebox.com is a temporary solution, which works for DIY hardware,
but for long term survival we really need something else. So to base the
box on Linux and not tie too much of it towards Logitech and
LMS/mysqueezebox.com is probably a good idea to make it easier to change
it to work with something else in the future.


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[JJZolx]

Post by erland
I suspect we are still talking about a DIY solution or possibly a
pre-packaged DIY solution, so far I haven't seen any indication in this
thread that makes me think it will reach the masses. To reach the masses
you really need multiple type of devices, at minimum one optimized for
connection to an external amplifier and one with built-in speakers
suitable for kitchen/bedroom/bathroom kind of environment.
To reach the masses you also need to reach the shelf in the stores, but
that's a different topic so let's not bring that into the discussion
yet.
(etc.)

You've lost me... Who's talking about "masses" or selling anything in
stores?

Post by erland
I personally still believe something that relies on LMS or even
mysqueezebox.com is a temporary solution, which works for DIY hardware,
but for long term survival we really need something else. So to base the
box on Linux and not tie too much of it towards Logitech and
LMS/mysqueezebox.com is probably a good idea to make it easier to change
it to work with something else in the future.

I haven't addressed mysb.com functionality, but how can a Squeezebox
replacement NOT rely on LMS or another server that implements SlimProto?
If it doesn't, then it's not a Squeezebox.

John's post talks of circuit boards an IR input, so I presume that he's
talking about building something that resembles and operates like a
Squeezebox. We're no longer talking about taking a Raspberry Pi or other
off-the-shelf computer and making it work like a Squeezebox to feed a
USB DAC. For the most part, that's been done. My post above simply tries
to outline what I feel would be the minimum required I/O of an SB
replacement. Apart from the USB, it's not much different than the old
Receiver.


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[pippin]

Adding audio beyond USB audio for me mainly brings up the question of
drivers and codecs.
Since you'd not be able to afford commercial codecs and patent licenses
for a DIY activity you'd need to be able to go with something that fits
into a standard open-source architecture, with other words, you need
ALSA drivers.
Would a custom audio solution use a chipset that comes with ALSA
drivers?

On the server side the main point is that you probably need to branch to
be able to supply your own firmware which in turn means you need to
de-brand LMS but I might be wrong here.

The one thing where I don't see an issue is the USB display. That's IMHO
unrelated to the server and purely a client-side activity since you can
drive the thing through the server-side SqueezePlay menus.


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[erland]

Post by pippin
Adding audio beyond USB audio for me mainly brings up the question of
drivers and codecs.

Don't you have codec/patent licensing issues also with USB audio ?
Isn't the issue related to MP3 codecs and similar ? Won't those be
needed also if you use USB audio ?

However, as I said in my previous post a few minutes ago, I think it's
best to just do a real DIY solution where each user buys the parts and
assembles it themselves and load the necessary software on it, then you
could probably avoid the codec/patent issues as you are just selling a
circuit board without any software, or am I missing something ?

You would of course still need drivers, but hopefully those are already
available if you select hardware components which already have Linux
drivers.

Post by pippin
On the server side the main point is that you probably need to branch to
be able to supply your own firmware which in turn means you need to
de-brand LMS but I might be wrong here.

For a DIY solution you would probably not load firmware through LMS. The
real Logitech Squeezebox devices in the system would get firmware from
LMS, the DIY devices would get their firmware through a SDHC card, USB
stick or some other way. We aren't talking mass market convenience, we
are talking DIY solution for enthusiasts as I've understood it.

One reason to re-brand LMS is if you want to ensure long term survival
and not risk that Logitech will stop maintaining it in a year or two.
Another reason could be that you want to add new features to the core
parts of LMS since this won't happen as long as Logitech maintains it.
Most things can probably be added as plugins and won't need a community
maintained LMS, but if you want to really revolutionize it, you would
probably need to branch it since new features would be needed in the
core parts.


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[erland]

Post by JJZolx
You've lost me... Who's talking about "masses" or selling anything in
stores?

Sorry, I think my mind went a bit ahead of the thread :-)
When reading John's post again it's pretty clear that he is talking
about a low volume solution which doesn't have to be sold through local
stores.

Post by JJZolx
I haven't addressed mysb.com functionality, but how can a Squeezebox
replacement NOT rely on LMS or another server that implements SlimProto?
If it doesn't, then it's not a Squeezebox.
John's post talks of circuit boards an IR input, so I presume that he's
talking about building something that resembles and operates like a
Squeezebox. We're no longer talking about taking a Raspberry Pi or other
off-the-shelf computer and making it work like a Squeezebox to feed a
USB DAC. For the most part, that's been done. My post above simply tries
to outline what I feel would be the minimum required I/O of an SB
replacement. Apart from the USB, it's not much different than the old
Receiver.

In my mind:
Squeezebox replancement = A music streaming device that provides similar
features as the Squeezebox (preferably but not necessarily compatible
with existing Squeezeboxes)

However, I think a DIY solution could make sense to some existing
Squeezebox enthusiasts who have a desperate need to enhance their
existing system, relying on LMS makes sense if you want to do something
simple that works as a temporary solution until the market catches up
with the needs we have. In my mind it doesn't really make sense to even
package software and hardware together for this kind of system, just let
each user buy the parts, load the software on it and assemble the device
themselves. It would avoid the codec licensing issue pippin mentions,
since you are just selling a circuit board and not a music streaming
device.

Still, if you just want a temporary solution, why not just get a used
Squeezebox from eBay ?
Surely there will be people selling their old Squeezeboxes on eBay
during the years to come if people are still willing to buy it for the
same price as a new one.
I guess it could make sense if you like to experiment with DIY
solutions, just because it's fun, but if not I can't really see the need
unless you also handle the long term issues.

If you want to do something more long term, you really need to handle
LMS and mysqueezebox.com maintenance and then it will become a much
bigger thing and in this case it might even be better to start over and
build something with similar functionality instead of relying on LMS
which have 10 years of architectural inheritance. Reusing someone elses
code in a new system isn't always the easiest way to do things, in my
experience you really earn most time by reusing functional
specifications and possibly architecture/design and protocols if it's
good, reusing code only really makes sense if you don't plan to change
it or you already understand the code in detail. Of course, for LMS
there isn't really any functional specifications to reuse and the
protocols are barely documented, so the question is if it's really worth
the trouble to try to branch and re-brand it.


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[JJZolx]

Post by erland
Sorry, I think my mind went a bit ahead of the thread :-)
Squeezebox replancement = A music streaming device that provides similar
features as the Squeezebox (preferably but not necessarily compatible
with existing Squeezeboxes)

New players like this are being released by consumer electronics and
audio companies almost weekly, typically relying on DLNA network servers
for local content. But with few of features that the _software_ of the
Squeezebox system affords. Things like synched playback, plugins and
broad audio format compatibility. I'm not sure I see the point in
producing another one. Surely by now there's a player available for
everyone if those limitations are of no importance.

If you want many of the same features as Squeezebox, you're going to
have to make the system reliant upon some kind of local server. Do you
want to write something like Squeezebox Server over again from scratch?
SBS isn't perfect, but it represents many man-years of work. (And then
I'd have to ask: How would this system complement my existing Squeezebox
infrastructure and investment? If it's completely independent of it,
then I fail to see much appeal.)

My understanding is that as far as copyright issues are concerned, the
only thing prevented would be the re-distribution of Squeezebox
firmware. Which seems like a minor concern when you consider that the
firmware for older Squeezeboxes is no longer being updated and new
firmware for SqueezePlay devices is downloaded on the fly. As far as
codecs are concerned: is Logitech actually licensing any of the
distributed software? They don't even distribute LAME with the server
for MP3 encoding.


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[dyohn]

Like I said on the previous page, it already exists.
http://vortexbox.org/content/149-Logitech-SqueezeBox-replacement-for-under-30


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[erland]

Post by JJZolx
I'd have to ask: How would this system complement my existing Squeezebox
infrastructure and investment? If it's completely independent of it,
then I fail to see much appeal.)

Correct, unless you can load custom firmware to your existing
Squeezeboxes and make them work with the new system.
Based on my own experience, I know this is reasonable on the
Touch/Radio, but it's probably going to be a bit more complex on the
older devices.

Also, obviously it only makes sense to do a completely new system if the
new system can be sold to the masses, if you plan to only sell a few
hundred devices you should just base the solution on
LMS/mysqueezebox.com.

Post by JJZolx
My understanding is that as far as copyright issues are concerned, the
only thing prevented would be the re-distribution of Squeezebox
firmware. Which seems like a minor concern when you consider that the
firmware for older Squeezeboxes is no longer being updated and new
firmware for SqueezePlay devices is downloaded on the fly. As far as
codecs are concerned: is Logitech actually licensing any of the
distributed software? They don't even distribute LAME with the server
for MP3 encoding.

From my memory, the copyright/re-distribution issues are at least:
- Player firmware
- All artwork (buttons, icons, logos and similar things)
- Windows installer (I think it's copyrighted to Logitech, but the
reason for that is probably mainly because they don't have permission to
let anyone else redistribute it)
- exe binaries for Windows (I think you need the OEM version of
ActiveState Perl, not sure what it costs)
- I think someone also mentioned that some codecs were a problem, don't
remember which ones
- I'm not sure about the license status of the Windows control panel
applet.

You can choose to ignore the legal issues and my guess is that Logitech
probably won't care unless you do something that hurts their business.
If you are lucky the companies owning the rights for codecs, Windows
installer and exe binaries for perl won't notice you are breaking their
license. If they do care, you could end up in legal trouble, but I guess
someone doing it would have to make a judgement if it's worth the risk
or not. As long as you only distribute it to geeks you are probably
fine, if you distribute it to all Squeezebox users and advertise it, the
risk of getting caught becomes a bit bigger.

Making a completely legal fork is going to be a bit of work, especially
if you like to satisfy Windows users.
Andy mentioned in some thread that building all the CPAN perl modules on
Windows can be a bit of a challenge, so except for the above I suspect
this will introduce another complexity if you like to keep CPAN modules
updated and satisfy Windows users. The svn/git version works because
Logitech have already pre-built the CPAN binaries and commited them to
svn/git.


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[JJZolx]

Post by erland
- Player firmware
- All artwork (buttons, icons, logos and similar things)
- Windows installer (I think it's copyrighted to Logitech, but the
reason for that is probably mainly because they don't have permission to
let anyone else redistribute it)
- exe binaries for Windows (I think you need the OEM version of
ActiveState Perl, not sure what it costs)
- I think someone also mentioned that some codecs were a problem, don't
remember which ones
- I'm not sure about the license status of the Windows control panel
applet.

Ok. Yeah, there are some obstacles there.

- Player firmware. As stated previously, not really a concern.

- Artwork. If SqueezePlay isn't used, then this would only be in the web
UI. Drop in replacements wouldn't be hard to create for a decent graphic
artist.

- Windows Installer. Another could be created. Probably one that is much
faster.

- EXE for Windows. Yes, if we wanted to recreate this, the ActiveState
SDK would need to be purchased and licensing (if needed) would have to
be explored. Or, require users to install the free ActiveState Perl
interpreter and run the Perl code. For a project like this, that's not
unreasonable.

- Windows Control Panel. Not necessary. IIRC, the only thing it does
that can't easily be done otherwise, is install/uninstall SBS as a
Windows service. That functionality could be incorporated into the
Windows installer, and you could just have users re-run the installer.

If there are codecs that require licensing, whether or not a player is
based on SBS will make no difference. How does a player like Squeezelite
deal with this?


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[erland]

Post by JJZolx
If there are codecs that require licensing, whether or not a player is
based on SBS will make no difference. How does a player like Squeezelite
deal with this?

Not sure how it works now, but initially I believe it required you to
install lame on the server.
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97766-Announce-Local-Player-plugin-and-Squeezelite-for-Linux-Windows-OSX&p=731954&viewfull=1#post731954

Not sure how/if it would cause more issues in a scenario where someone
bundled squeezelite pre-installed on a hardware box.

Licensing will be an issue on consumer packaged hardware unless:
- You sell to the masses so the initial/annual license costs are small
compared to your revenue
or
- Someone else has already payed the license for you (if I've understood
correctly this can be the case for some audio circuits, at least in
theory)

The issues regarding licenses only cause problem if you only plan to
sell a few devices. The per device cost is often not the issue, it's the
initial/annual minimal costs that cause problems.


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[dustinsterk]

Post by erland
Not sure how it works now, but initially I believe it required you to
install lame on the server.
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97766-Announce-Local-Player-plugin-and-Squeezelite-for-Linux-Windows-OSX&p=731954&viewfull=1#post731954
Not sure how/if it would cause more issues in a scenario where someone
bundled squeezelite pre-installed on a hardware box.
- You sell to the masses so the initial/annual license costs are small
compared to your revenue
or
- Someone else has already payed the license for you (if I've understood
correctly this can be the case for some audio circuits, at least in
theory)
The issues regarding licenses only cause problem if you only plan to
sell a few devices. The per device cost is often not the issue, it's the
initial/annual minimal costs that cause problems.

We could have two versions of the product:
1) A 'DIY' device which would be cheaper and require the user to load
the software.
2) A 'Ready to Go' version which includes the licensing costs and is a
little more expensive.


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[erland]

Post by dustinsterk
1) A 'DIY' device which would be cheaper and require the user to load
the software.
2) A 'Ready to Go' version which includes the licensing costs and is a
little more expensive.

I suspect:
- The people who is able to use the DIY device are those who don't have
an issue with a higher price (geeks don't care if it costs a bit as long
as it's cool :-) )
- The people who isn't able to use the DIY device is likely those who
want a lower price

So I would just focus on either the DIY device and ignore people who
can't install it or focus only on the consumer device and hope to get
more customers and make the licensing costs less of a problem. If I've
understood it correctly, you would have to pay the minimum $15 000 for
the MP3 license before you sell the first device, so you need to ensure
you have funding for this if you want to do the "Ready to Go" device, if
you only sell 100 of them the first year the MP3 license adds
$150/device, so you need to ensure you have packaged it in a nice case
so it can sell more than hundred devices per year.


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[erland]

Post by JJZolx
- EXE for Windows. Yes, if we wanted to recreate this, the ActiveState
SDK would need to be purchased and licensing (if needed) would have to
be explored. Or, require users to install the free ActiveState Perl
interpreter and run the Perl code. For a project like this, that's not
unreasonable.

The problem is still the CPAN modules, Logitech compiles these for newer
ActiveState versions regularly so you never see the issue when you run
svn/git version because they have commited binaries in svn/git.

I don't think compiling them would require a OEM license but as I've
understood from Andy it requires a bit of work to setup the build
environment to compile them.

ActiveState have a tendency to remove older perl versions and only offer
the latest or two latest ones for free, so for it to work for new users
you need to ensure you have always compiled the CPAN modules towards the
latest version available from ActiveStatue.

So I think Windows support will be a bit of work independent if you
redistribute compiled exe's or just distribute perl code with compiled
CPAN modules.

But maybe we can create a Linux based server box also to get around that
issue or just recommend users to get a VortexBox Appliance.


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[pippin]

Post by JJZolx
My understanding is that as far as copyright issues are concerned, the
only thing prevented would be the re-distribution of Squeezebox
firmware. Which seems like a minor concern when you consider that the
firmware for older Squeezeboxes is no longer being updated and new
firmware for SqueezePlay devices is downloaded on the fly. As far as
codecs are concerned: is Logitech actually licensing any of the
distributed software? They don't even distribute LAME with the server
for MP3 encoding.

They do license a lot for the players.
There are two aspects here:
Software licenses (probably for mp3, WMA, and AAC) and patent fees (at
least mp3 and WMA, not sure about AAC). Both come with a fixed minimum
cost that makes them prohibitive at low volumes.


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[erland]

Post by pippin
They do license a lot for the players.
Software licenses (probably for mp3, WMA, and AAC) and patent fees (at
least mp3 and WMA, not sure about AAC). Both come with a fixed minimum
cost that makes them prohibitive at low volumes.

For those interested:
MP3: http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/hardware.html
AAC: http://www.vialicensing.com/licensing/aac-fees.aspx
WMA: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/licensing/final.aspx

Or in summary (if my interpretation is correct), the minimum fees are:
MP3: $5 000/year as minimum
AAC: $1 000 initial setup (http://www.un4seen.com/forum/?topic=10328.0)
WMA: Not sure what the $400 000 number means, feels like way too much as
an annual fee.

So basically, the alternatives are one of:
- Make a DIY device and let the user assemble it and avoid the license
issues
- Base the device on hardware where the hardware manufacturer already
pays the necessary codec/patent licenses.
- Hope that nobody notice that you are violating licenses (might be
reasonable if you only plan to sell 500 devices and doesn't advertise it
much)
- Sell to the masses
- Focus on OGG/FLAC and avoid codecs/patents which requires a license.


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[pippin]

MP3 is $15.000 (as of your link) minimum per year.

I believe all text in SqueezePlay/LMS is also copyrighted, changing this
would probably be the biggest activity.


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[Mark Miksis]

Post by pippin
They do license a lot for the players.
Software licenses (probably for mp3, WMA, and AAC) and patent fees (at
least mp3 and WMA, not sure about AAC). Both come with a fixed minimum
cost that makes them prohibitive at low volumes.

Note also that, as per Michael, Logitech pays some money to TuneIn for
each player sold. It's not clear how much or exactly what this enables
that is not available from TuneIn for free.


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[erland]

Post by Mark Miksis
Note also that, as per Michael, Logitech pays some money to TuneIn for
each player sold. It's not clear how much or exactly what this enables
that is not available from TuneIn for free.

I'm not sure it's available for free at all for streaming devices, as
I've understood you need a partner agreement to get access to the API
these days.


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[TheLastMan]

Post by JJZolx
Maybe I'm missing something, but I see little reason to build a
displayless SB replacement without an internal DAC and analog out.
Otherwise, the only thing it such a device might have over the current
DIY solutions built on PCs with USB output is a high quality S/PDIF out.
- analog L/R
- optical S/PDIF
- coax S/PDIF
- USB
- ethernet
- wifi

+1

Everybody who reads these forums is an "enthusiast", but few are
"geeks". Most of us could cope with buying a box and following some
step-by-step instructions to install a pre-packaged linux distro and
software player (similar to the Vortexbox project) but that would be
about the limit.

Remember some of us have wives and an ugly "Pogoplug" device with a
totally uncoordinated USB DAC hanging off the back won't cut the "decor"
mustard. Ideally the thing should be at least passably attractive and
small enough to be nearly invisible anyway.

We were prepared to pay £150/$200+ for our Squeezeboxes so we can afford
this for a replacement, so a $30 player is unnecessarily cheap! Most
would be prepared to pay an extra £100 in order not to have to spend 30
hours making several attempts at "hacking" linux to get the thing to
work!

Most stereo "hi-fi" amps do not have integrated DACs so the device will
definitely need a DAC, but it only needs to be as good as the Receiver
or Touch. If you want better you can buy a hi-fi DAC (as opposed to a
computer audio DAC).

I really like the look of the CuBox:
http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox

In design terms it is so nearly there. Add a halfway decent audio chip
and it would be a done deal for me if you could download pre-packaged
software to go on it.


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[dustinsterk]

Post by TheLastMan
+1
Everybody who reads these forums is an "enthusiast", but few are
"geeks". Most of us could cope with buying a box and following some
step-by-step instructions to install a pre-packaged linux distro and
software player (similar to the Vortexbox project) but that would be
about the limit.
Remember some of us have wives and an ugly "Pogoplug" device with a
totally uncoordinated USB DAC hanging off the back won't cut the "decor"
mustard. Ideally the thing should be at least passably attractive and
small enough to be nearly invisible anyway.
We were prepared to pay £150/$200+ for our Squeezeboxes so we can afford
this for a replacement, so a $30 player is unnecessarily cheap! Most
would be prepared to pay an extra £100 in order not to have to spend 30
hours making several attempts at "hacking" linux to get the thing to
work!
Most stereo "hi-fi" amps do not have integrated DACs so the device will
definitely need a DAC, but it only needs to be as good as the Receiver
or Touch. If you want better you can buy a hi-fi DAC (as opposed to a
computer audio DAC).
http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox
In design terms it is so nearly there. Add a halfway decent audio chip
and it would be a done deal for me if you could download pre-packaged
software to go on it.

I do agree that the new version must be visually attractive, with or
without a screen (to be decided later), or very small to hide the
clutter (unlike the pogoplug versions, etc). I also like the approach
of having HDMI out and allowing this new device to display now playing
information on your choice ouput devices (TV, Monitor, etc). The CuBox
does look to be close, just without the DAC. I would look to John for
suggestions and input to keep costs in check, etc.


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[epoch1970]

Post by TheLastMan
We were prepared to pay £150/$200+ for our Squeezeboxes so we can afford
this for a replacement, so a $30 player is unnecessarily cheap! Most
would be prepared to pay an extra £100 in order not to have to spend 30
hours making several attempts at "hacking" linux to get the thing to
work!

+1
- I will pay (in advance if necessary) the former price of an SB3 to
get the same service in a new device. Count me in for 1 (and up to 3 if
we're talking about a Boom replacement.) The thing has to be well
thought, promise a long lifecycle, and shall not come in a sandwich box.
It has to work fine with my current SBs.
- I could pay around $70 (that's with all accessories) for a software
player properly packaged on an off-the-shelf platform, controlled via
iPeng. But probably only once my SBs start dying…

A reasonably priced dedicated device, part of an SB-compatible system,
has a lot of appeal to me.

(I looked at some Olive One videos. I will wait for the marketing haze
to lift; But for the moment, surely it does not appear as SB compatible
and that's not good for me --DLNA will not enter my home. And second, I
hope for them they will be able to pump up performance of the seemingly
obligatory color display. Competing with smartphones is difficult, as
we've seen.)


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[lrossouw]

Love the discussion here! I'm in on a device. Will probably mess round
with R Pi and squeezelite until then. I think starting with LMS based
device is the way to go. I think displays are over rated. Rather HDMI
out for that. I rarely look at my touches these days. Always on my tab
or phone first. I think John Swenson's technical involvement would be
great.


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[dustinsterk]

Post by JohnSwenson
Hi guys,
I want in on this! I have been thinking a lot about it over the last few
months. I am well accomplished at the hardware design part of this. I'm
not sure most of you are aware of this but I do part time consulting for
high end hiFi companies wanting to get into digitaal audio, I have lots
of hardware experience doing just what this project is about and making
it into products for low volume production.
There seems to be an assumption that you need very high volumes to get
low prices, this is not really the case. You need high volumes to get
REALLY low price, but medium range prices is can be had for fairly low
volumes. For example something along the complexity of the Touch main
board, can be manufactured for around $125 in 25 quantity, thats board,
parts and assembly. That does NOT include the case, full assembly etc,
just the board. At 50 quantity you can get down to $100 a board.
I have done designs using off the shelf boards and ones that I have done
the whole thing from scratch, my current thinking is that for more than
a couple systems it actually winds up being cheaper to do the whole
thing from scratch, that way you get EXACTLY what you want. When using
an off the shelf board you have to try and shoehorn your design into
sombody elses vision, which rarely matches yours exactly.
For example, some people around here have mentioned things like IR
remotes, if your chosen existing board doesn't have the capability, you
either live without it or you have to add a board that does it, and
figure out how to connect that into some port on the existing board.
When you do the whole thing yourself it is MUCH easier to add things
like that directly to the main board.
When doing it yourself you have a wide range of options available for
including in the device, that would be very difficult to add to an
existing board. For example as has been mentioned having FPGA based
filters is something that is easy to add to our own board, and adds very
little cost. I can easily put in a VERY high quality S/PDIF interface
that will be better than just about anything out there, or even a USB
output optimized for audio use.
I have been doing systems like these for many years now and the biggest
time sinc has always been the UI. Since the SB line already has good
external UI options, I think it makes more sense to design a product to
be a black box (but with a web server for configuration etc so you get
away from the Duet problems). Having a display and interface along the
lines of the Touch seems to me to double or tripple the complexity of
the project.
I'm a little torn on one aspect of this, my passion is for very high
quality DACs, having done systems similar to this several times I CAN
say that I can do a better job for less money building very good DACs
into the project than you can get by buying external DACs. It doesn't
HAVE to be an either or. I can do a two board system, one board has the
main guts and digital audio interfaces (S/PDIF USB) and another board
that plugs in which has the DACs (it does NOT connect to the S/PDIF or
USB). So if you want to spend the extra $400 you can get audio quality
that will out perform external DACs costing many thousands. It is just
so much easier to do a really good job of a DAC if you can build it into
the architecture of the main system.
Things I am NOT good at: industrial design, please don't ask me to
design a really good looking case for this!
John S.

Hello John,
This is VERY exciting news. I am not 100% sure where to go with this
and the next steps. My overall feeling is that there are many users
that want a device.... but still questions if there is a "market" for
it. I feel that if we assemble a small group, put together the design
and implement a "kickstarter" type project, we will get the interest
from this community. I would assume we could easily get over 50 - 100
orders on the first batch if the price was right.

This leads to a much larger question of legalities with Logitech,
creation of an LLC or other company structure, how we further market,
etc. Erland has already created the developers group. I am wondering
if we should take this entire discussion to that group and the parties
that have real interest can join.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
--Dustin


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[erland]

Post by dustinsterk
This leads to a much larger question of legalities with Logitech,
creation of an LLC or other company structure, how we further market,
etc. Erland has already created the developers group. I am wondering
if we should take this entire discussion to that group and the parties
that have real interest can join.
Thoughts?

I agree, discussing legal strategies and potential company structure is
better handled in private.

If you want to use the private developers group I created, that's fine
with me, it's linked to in the forth post in this thread.
Just be aware that I'm going to keep it small and only accept members
who I trust and who have already shown their abilities that makes me
think they can help with development or hardware design, so if you want
to check for interest regarding different features or who want to donate
money to the project, that kind of discussion is probably better handled
in the public forum or asking them to mail you directly.


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[pippin]

The advantage of using USB audio is that it usually comes with ALSA
driver support so you can use standard open source codec distributions.
Still doesn't help you if you want to sell the thing as a working unit
but for a DIY platform that just needs a software distribution to be
added to it it gets you around having to develop drivers, which isn't
the most convenient thing to do.

I have no idea whether the same result can also be achieved by using a
standard chipset, hence my question.


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[dyohn]

Well, this solution worked for me. USB DAC and control via iPad and I'm
rocking.

http://vortexbox.org/content/149-Logitech-SqueezeBox-replacement-for-under-30


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[Triode]

Anyone reading this thread should try Squeezelite on a CuBox or a
Rasberry Pi, Pogoplug....

My original motivation for squeezelite is for a headless linux playback
engine which emulates as many features as possible of the Squeezebox
hardware so that it can integrate with existing LMS, but run on a small
linux device and drive a usb dac. I think its close to release status
and has a few users at present..... I.e. exactly what we could be
talking about here...

I think we can easliy do something which is a usable player for people
by constraining the scope:

1) target a small number of linux devices and create some standard
install scripts/images for them
2) start with a headless system (no ui, but target a device with hdmi
interface as we can expand into hdmi based user interface relatively
easliy); users can use LMS web interface, iPeng, SqueezePad etc to
controll it
3) start with usb audio as this means we can use off the shelf hardware
and let the user select the level of audio engineering they want from $5
upwards...
4) assume the user has some involvement in the install process and we
are not charging for the solution, so this allows the user to download
standard linux codecs without concerns over patent licensing...

Later we can add a user interface and potentially integrate server
functions.

For me a Cubox is making an excellent but expensive player. A Raspberry
Pi is cheaper, but has problems with USB dac compatiblity (hopefully to
be resolved by the Pi developers). Both provide usb out, ethernet and
wifi via usb and hdmi for a future user interface....


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[dustinsterk]

Post by Triode
Anyone reading this thread should try Squeezelite on a CuBox or a
Rasberry Pi, Pogoplug....
My original motivation for squeezelite is for a headless linux playback
engine which emulates as many features as possible of the Squeezebox
hardware so that it can integrate with existing LMS, but run on a small
linux device and drive a usb dac. I think its close to release status
and has a few users at present..... I.e. exactly what we could be
talking about here...
I think we can easliy do something which is a usable player for people
1) target a small number of linux devices and create some standard
install scripts/images for them
2) start with a headless system (no ui, but target a device with hdmi
interface as we can expand into hdmi based user interface relatively
easliy); users can use LMS web interface, iPeng, SqueezePad etc to
controll it
3) start with usb audio as this means we can use off the shelf hardware
and let the user select the level of audio engineering they want from $5
upwards...
4) assume the user has some involvement in the install process and we
are not charging for the solution, so this allows the user to download
standard linux codecs without concerns over patent licensing...
Later we can add a user interface and potentially integrate server
functions.
For me a Cubox is making an excellent but expensive player. A Raspberry
Pi is cheaper, but has problems with USB dac compatiblity (hopefully to
be resolved by the Pi developers). Both provide usb out, ethernet and
wifi via usb and hdmi for a future user interface....

Question to John, and this maybe too early to answer: A device similar
to the Cubox (design/features), adding the DAC, what can be expected
from time/money invested?


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[JJZolx]

Post by dustinsterk
Question to John, and this maybe too early to answer: A device similar
to the Cubox (design/features), adding the DAC, what can be expected
from time/money invested?

He mentioned $100 for the mainboard in small quantities. Although that
sounds quite reasonable, that's before adding a CPU, memory, wifi card,
antennas, audio components, connectors, power supply, case and
assembly.

Can something like this be made to work with 'stock' LMS, or does it
require involvement from someone maintaining the server to add support
for a new type of Squeezebox device?


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[erland]

Post by JJZolx
He mentioned $100 for the mainboard in small quantities. Although that
sounds quite reasonable, that's before adding a CPU, memory, wifi card,
antennas, audio components, connectors, power supply, case and
assembly.
Can something like this be made to work with 'stock' LMS, or does it
require involvement from someone maintaining the server to add support
for a new type of Squeezebox device?

It will work with stock LMS.


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[dustinsterk]

Post by erland
It will work with stock LMS.

As previously discussed, I see a perfect marriage of this new device
with Vortexbox. It is a perfect LMS platform which I am a big fan of
and use everyday!


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[JohnSwenson]

Some quick thinking and back of envelope figures comes up with the
following:

One board which has CPU, main memory (DDR2 or DDR3), boot rom, ethernet,
USB, S/PDIF out, I2S to a DAC chip, WiFi and HDMI. No onboard display,
no server.

I have found some very nice new processors that do almost everything
here, have linux distros ready to go which include drivers for all this
(including audio for USB, I2S and S/PDIF). Quick calculations come up
with $170 for board, all parts, and assembly in 25 unit quantities. Of
course price goes down as quantity increases.

This does NOT include: case, power supply, antenna and final assembly.

I found a very interesting DAC chip for this. As some of you might have
read in my posts, I am convinced that one of the biggest problems with
getting REALLY good sound from digital audio is the compromised digital
filters in DAC chip. This DAC is uniquein that it has a general purpose
DSP system included which allows you to implement your own filter! (by
default it uses the good old broken design that everybody uses, but you
don't HAVE to use it) Using a non compromised filter will significantly
improve the sound quality over what you can get from say a Touch. It
also has enough power to do things like room correction filters, speaker
crossovers etc. And it costs $9 in singles. It has a direct drive output
so it can directly drive RCA jacks without any caps or op amps etc.

With this DSP it can easily do things such as what was done in the Boom
without adding any extra circuitry. It can also do other things such as
Dolby digital or DTS decoding. I would add a connector on the main board
so you can add an inexpensive daugther board and get 4 more outputs, you
can then have it do surround sound or digtial crossovers for triamped
speaker systems. With all the processing done inside the DAC chip!

The WiFi is also rather interesting, I found a little WiFi module which
has it's own processor which has a web server for configuratgion,
supports bridge mode, AP mode AND has a router and DHCP server built in,
all for $30. This means that not only can it connect to an existing
wireless network, it can make it's OWN wireless network so you can use
iPeng (or whatever) without having to have an existing network or
worrying about how to connect this box and your chose remote to
something else. It offloads all the wireless encryption etc from the
main processor, it just looks like a wired ethernet device to the main
processor (it also has a 5 port ethernet switch built in which can even
do VLANs if you REALLY want to do fancy IT stuff)

Without having to do display or wifi stuff the main processor really
doesn't have all that much to do, just run linux, IP stack, audio
drivers and Squeezelite. It doesn't need to be a very powerful
processor. There are some very nice new processors which are very low
power (electrical wise, not throughput wise) which have two processors
on the same chip, one which is the main processor and the other that is
optimized for peripheral handling which takes care of a lot of the real
time interaction with things such as the ethernet and USB, freeing up
the main processor from having to deal with the low level interactions
with these. The linux drivers deal with all this already.

With the low power use of everything in the system it might be quite
possible to run this as a battery powered device. It's not going to be
very big either, something like 3x3 inches.

How does that sound, any thoughts?

Thanks,

John S.


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[JackOfAll]

Post by JohnSwenson
How does that sound, any thoughts?

I'm with you on using off-chip OS/DF. What DAC chip do you have in mind?


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[chill]

Post by JohnSwenson
How does that sound, any thoughts?

I hesitate to ask, but particularly in light of the self-contained wifi,
is there likely to be room on the processor to run LMS too?


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[Triode]

Post by JohnSwenson
Some quick thinking and back of envelope figures comes up with the
One board which has CPU, main memory (DDR2 or DDR3), boot rom, ethernet,
USB, S/PDIF out, I2S to a DAC chip, WiFi and HDMI. No onboard display,
no server.
I have found some very nice new processors that do almost everything
here, have linux distros ready to go which include drivers for all this
(including audio for USB, I2S and S/PDIF). Quick calculations come up
with $170 for board, all parts, and assembly in 25 unit quantities. Of
course price goes down as quantity increases.
This does NOT include: case, power supply, antenna and final assembly.
I found a very interesting DAC chip for this. As some of you might have
read in my posts, I am convinced that one of the biggest problems with
getting REALLY good sound from digital audio is the compromised digital
filters in DAC chip. This DAC is uniquein that it has a general purpose
DSP system included which allows you to implement your own filter! (by
default it uses the good old broken design that everybody uses, but you
don't HAVE to use it) Using a non compromised filter will significantly
improve the sound quality over what you can get from say a Touch. It
also has enough power to do things like room correction filters, speaker
crossovers etc. And it costs $9 in singles. It has a direct drive output
so it can directly drive RCA jacks without any caps or op amps etc.
With this DSP it can easily do things such as what was done in the Boom
without adding any extra circuitry. It can also do other things such as
Dolby digital or DTS decoding. I would add a connector on the main board
so you can add an inexpensive daugther board and get 4 more outputs, you
can then have it do surround sound or digtial crossovers for triamped
speaker systems. With all the processing done inside the DAC chip!
The WiFi is also rather interesting, I found a little WiFi module which
has it's own processor which has a web server for configuratgion,
supports bridge mode, AP mode AND has a router and DHCP server built in,
all for $30. This means that not only can it connect to an existing
wireless network, it can make it's OWN wireless network so you can use
iPeng (or whatever) without having to have an existing network or
worrying about how to connect this box and your chose remote to
something else. It offloads all the wireless encryption etc from the
main processor, it just looks like a wired ethernet device to the main
processor (it also has a 5 port ethernet switch built in which can even
do VLANs if you REALLY want to do fancy IT stuff)
Without having to do display or wifi stuff the main processor really
doesn't have all that much to do, just run linux, IP stack, audio
drivers and Squeezelite. It doesn't need to be a very powerful
processor. There are some very nice new processors which are very low
power (electrical wise, not throughput wise) which have two processors
on the same chip, one which is the main processor and the other that is
optimized for peripheral handling which takes care of a lot of the real
time interaction with things such as the ethernet and USB, freeing up
the main processor from having to deal with the low level interactions
with these. The linux drivers deal with all this already.
With the low power use of everything in the system it might be quite
possible to run this as a battery powered device. It's not going to be
very big either, something like 3x3 inches.
How does that sound, any thoughts?
Thanks,
John S.

Hi John - many thoughts on this....

1) Anything from an arm5 at 400Mhz or so would be enough for basic flac
playback and possibly a limited display, but it would be infinitely
preferable to have hardfloat support and armv6, single core would be ok
(Pi type class - armv6 or later, 600MHz or more)
2) Floating point means better support of aac and vorbis and allows the
standard libfaad, libvorbis to be used
3) Squeezlite has as small a footprint as I could manage, but it would
be nice to have a bit more memory if we want to do hdmi user interface.
[I have some thoughts in that area too - can you make it 128M at least?]
4) Can we validate it has real ehci usb hardware rather than the s***
that Pi has!)
5) Can we pick something which is arm based so libspotify will work on
it?
6) Ability to run some form of server would be nice, long term this need
not be LMS! However I think it would be good to have some headroom
unless you think this hits the cost too much.


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[JohnSwenson]

Post by Triode
Hi John - many thoughts on this....
1) Anything from an arm5 at 400Mhz or so would be enough for basic flac
playback and possibly a limited display, but it would be infinitely
preferable to have hardfloat support and armv6, single core would be ok
(Pi type class - armv6 or later, 600MHz or more)
2) Floating point means better support of aac and vorbis and allows the
standard libfaad, libvorbis to be used
3) Squeezlite has as small a footprint as I could manage, but it would
be nice to have a bit more memory if we want to do hdmi user interface.
[I have some thoughts in that area too - can you make it 128M at least?]
4) Can we validate it has real ehci usb hardware rather than the s***
that Pi has!)
5) Can we pick something which is arm based so libspotify will work on
it?
6) Ability to run some form of server would be nice, long term this need
not be LMS! However I think it would be good to have some headroom
unless you think this hits the cost too much.

What I am thinking about is one of the TI cortex A8 CPUs, armV7 based
with the VFPv3 floating point unit. The ones I'm looking at are in the
600-700MHz range. You can get faster ones but they cost more, and are
only available on the bigger chips which are much harder to route, which
most likely means a more expensive board.

The design I'm thinking of has 256MB memory, it's easy to go to 512MB
but the memory chip costs 3 times as much for doubling the capacity.
Anything above 512MB means multiple memory chips which again increases
the board cost.

If you go up to 1GHz models you have to switch memory chip architecture
which again costs more.

You can go up to 2.7GHz versions, but it's a HUGE chip that is going to
take a pretty expensive board.

I'm thinking that the 600MHz version is more than enough for just a
player. If we start adding a server at the same time we probably want at
least the 1GHz version, it will be a bit more expensive though. Anything
above 1GHz is going to cost a lot more. With a 1GHz processor and 512MB
of memory it's probably in the $200 to $220 range for the board.

John S.


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[JackOfAll]

Post by JohnSwenson
I'm thinking that the 600MHz version is more than enough for just a
player. If we start adding a server at the same time we probably want at
least the 1GHz version, it will be a bit more expensive though. Anything
above 1GHz is going to cost a lot more. With a 1GHz processor and 512MB
of memory it's probably in the $200 to $220 range for the board.

John,

I'd encourage you to go for more rather than less. An A8 proc with at
least 512M. (Pandaboard ES is A9 1.2GHz dual core with 1024MB RAM. That
retails for $180.) I think there is a market for something that isn't
bargain basement and that has the power to run more than just a software
player. ie. the server as well. (That was supposed to be the Touch. But
we all know what a dog that was for running the server.) If people want
to do it at beer money prices, there are already ways of doing software
players on the cheap with $30 devices and $20 USB DAC's. But if you are
going to go to the trouble of designing a board, future proof it and
build in flexibility, rather than it being just enough.


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[erland]

Post by JohnSwenson
I'm thinking that the 600MHz version is more than enough for just a
player. If we start adding a server at the same time we probably want at
least the 1GHz version, it will be a bit more expensive though. Anything
above 1GHz is going to cost a lot more. With a 1GHz processor and 512MB
of memory it's probably in the $200 to $220 range for the board.

If we are talking about a DIY model or a small volume module module
pre-packaged for geeks, I would say that between:
- 600MHz + 256MB for $170
- 1GHz + 512MB for $220

I would go for the 1GHz model to make it more future proof. For a simple
player we might not need the extra resources, but if we start adding
HDMI support to able to connect it to a TV we might want to do
visualization on the TV and show high res album covers and things like
that could easily use more CPU and memory even if we don't run a server
directly on the box.

Also, who knows, maybe we want to run Android on it sometime in the
future to get access to the Android app market, in this case a bit more
memory and faster CPU is probably also a good idea to make that kind of
possibility an option.

The 2.7GHz model feels like way too much.

I don't think the price increase from $170 to $220 will cause a problem
for DIY enthusiasts, the Raspberry Pi and SheevaPlug devices is
attractive because they are below $100, if you go above $100 or $150 I
don't think it matter much if its $150 or $250 for the DIY enthusiasts.

The situation would be a lot different if you are targeting mass market
users, in this case the difference between a $170 and $220 board could
be important.

Of course, if the board design will require a lot more work with a 1GHz
model with 512MB, it might be better to do a first batch with the slower
model to check the interest and upgrade it to a newer board later when
there is a need. But in this case I would make the first model as simple
as possible, to get it as cheap as possible and instead say that you
will do a new design when there are needs for a faster CPU/more memory.

So basically it's a decision if you want the first version to be a bit
future proof or just something that's works good with how we look at the
world at this exact moment.


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[igoddard]

What's the objective here? Just to provide replacement hardware for
existing users or to grow the whole Squeezebox user-ship?

If the latter then I think you need to start with a self-contained
appliance. I assume that everyone here is either running a server on
the likes of an NAS, a commercial server, a self-built server (including
me) or a desktop left switched on all the time. That isn't likely to be
the profile of potential new users. A device that simply plays streams
from a piece of kit the user doesn't have wouldn't make sense. If
Logitech couldn't make money out of the product line I think the lack of
a ready-made server must have been a factor.

What would make sense to a wider potential user-ship would be a box
which looks like an existing piece of domestic electronics kit, allows
existing CD collections to be ripped and stored, acts as a front end for
on-line purchases, doesn't need mouse, keyboard or screen, allows
web-management of the collection and plays the collection through
existing audio kit. That would be a useful piece of kit in its own
right and the potential to stream to other devices would be an add-on.

To some extent this sounds like the Vortexbox but in terms of a consumer
device I think Fedora is probably the wrong base. Debian stable or a
RHEL clone would be better. Or maybe even BSD. Also I'm not sure what
tools Vortexbox provides for managing the collection. On my own server,
because it runs headless, I use MPD plus an MPD web client that provides
tag editing and another web application for file management, neither of
which are as slick as I'd like nor are they integrated with each other
or with the Squeezebox server. There's scope for extending the LMS or
whatever it's called this week (the constant name changes can scarcely
have helped sell the product) with such facilities.


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[Julf]

Post by igoddard
If the latter then I think you need to start with a self-contained
appliance.

I think I have to disagree. The self-contained appliance has been tried
a number of times, starting with the 'Rio Advanced Digital Audio Center'
(http://www.iapplianceweb.com/appreview/audio_players_27.htm) in 2001.
All have been commercial failures.

Ripping CD's isn't going to be the dominating way to get your music into
your server any more - downloading and streaming are more important, and
in any case, you can't rip without keyboard and screen, as CDDB data
isn't 100% perfect. So acquiring content is best done on a
PC/Mac/whatever.

The server, with it's hard disk(s), is best placed away from your music
system.

The players should be as small as possible, with no moving parts. And
you want several of them.

So very conflicting requirements - not easily satisfied by a
self-contained box.


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[tcutting]

Post by Julf
I think I have to disagree. The self-contained appliance has been tried
a number of times, starting with the 'Rio Advanced Digital Audio Center'
(http://www.iapplianceweb.com/appreview/audio_players_27.htm) in 2001.
All have been commercial failures.
Ripping CD's isn't going to be the dominating way to get your music into
your server any more - downloading and streaming are more important, and
in any case, you can't rip without keyboard and screen, as CDDB data
isn't 100% perfect. So acquiring content is best done on a
PC/Mac/whatever.
The server, with it's hard disk(s), is best placed away from your music
system.
The players should be as small as possible, with no moving parts. And
you want several of them.
So very conflicting requirements - not easily satisfied by a
self-contained box.

I agree with this point of view. The players should be kept somewhat
simple. If someone is planning on a local music collection, surely they
already have a PC which can perform the ripping.


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[erland]

Post by igoddard
What's the objective here? Just to provide replacement hardware for
existing users or to grow the whole Squeezebox user-ship?

To be realistic, I think we are talking about a DIY system distributed
to a limited number of DIY enthusiasts in the community.
It's not something that would have any significant impact of total
number of Squeezebox users on short terms.
On longer terms the situation could be different, but then we are
probably talking about a future revision of the hardware and not the one
currently discussed.


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[P Nelson]

I think the goal needs to be sorted out to provide guidance on this
project. Yes, treat this like a project. I see several scenarios:
1) Build a box that relies on the existing Logitech software and
mysqueezebox.com
a. A box for the tech savvy computer music enthusiast.
b. A box for a music enthusiastic, and if they follow very clear
instructions with specific equipment and software, they can get it to
work
c. Plug and play

2) New hardware and user interface (does not rely of Logitech’s
software or servers)
a. A box for the tech savvy computer music enthusiast.
b. A box for a music enthusiastic, and if they follow very clear
instructions with specific equipment and software, they can get it to
work
c. Plug and play

If you are doing either 1a or 2a, I am not interested. In this thread I
did not understand all this linux stuff, so I am not your audience. The
instructions I have seen to upgrade/downgrade a UE radio make no sense
to me!

If you are doing 1b., I am probably not interested as I already have a
SB3, Touch, and two Radios. If it fixes the problems with the Touch to
be a server, then I could be very interested if I think I could
implement it successfully. If you are doing 2b, then I might be more
interested to transfer to a platform that has a future.

The whole option 1 is puzzling to me because everyone here already has a
SB product, so why do we need another self-made product? The answer is
because it solves a problem with the existing SB line or it adds a
feature that is currently not available. (Ok, some of you just want to
tinker with DIY projects and that is the only reason you need.) For
me, an enthusiast and not a computer geek, it needs to be implementable
(with very clear and specific instructions) and reliable. However, I am
concerned about investing more in a product when Logitech might pull the
plug. My main use is to connect to my own music server, but I do like
internet radio and the Pandora services, so I do want to use those
services in the future.

If you are doing 1c, my comment is this is probably not a good idea as
you might face the lawyers from Logitech and spending the effort to
build a product that the manufacturer will no longer supports seems
silly.

If you are doing 2c, then I could be interested. Especially if it WORKs
without the buggy LMS software and other problems I am having with the
Touch spontaneously shutting down. The Olive One looks like a
promising replacement platform for the SB. If I order an Olive One, I
will probably sell my 4 month old Touch to pay for it!

I met with the Olive One developer in their San Francisco office and I
am intrigued. They are almost done with the hardware design. They are
looking to add analog out, but it would require some board reconfigure.
The user interface was about 40% done. I like the idea of the box being
a server so I don’t need to turn the computer on or set another NAS
device with is associated problems. They are also going to build a
speaker that fits under the box. They are all very well made.


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[erland]

Post by P Nelson
I think the goal needs to be sorted out to provide guidance on this
1) Build a box that relies on the existing Logitech software and
mysqueezebox.com
a. A box for the tech savvy computer music enthusiast.
b. A box for a music enthusiastic, and if they follow very clear
instructions with specific equipment and software, they can get it to
work
c. Plug and play
2) New hardware and user interface (does not rely of Logitech’s
software or servers)
a. A box for the tech savvy computer music enthusiast.
b. A box for a music enthusiastic, and if they follow very clear
instructions with specific equipment and software, they can get it to
work
c. Plug and play
...
If you are doing 1c, my comment is this is probably not a good idea as
you might face the lawyers from Logitech and spending the effort to
build a product that the manufacturer will no longer supports seems
silly.

To be realistic:
- Nobody targeting 1c or 2c would say so in public at this early stage,
it would just create unnecessary high expectations among community
members.
- Short term, 1a and maybe also 1b, is realistic.
- On longer terms things can change a lot, at the moment we are really
just discussing the design of the circuit board, that board could on
longer terms be put in a nice case, with or without built-in speakers,
produced in big volumes and sold to the masses in normal stores.

So on longer terms something based on the current discussion could very
well turn out to be 2c, but getting there is going to be a lot of work
and its not just engineering work, so I suspect first 1a (and possibly
1b) and later 2a and 2b would have to be passed before trying reach 2c.
However, depending on how the initial experiments turns out, the
solution could very well also stay at 1a or 1b until the market comes up
with something better. Also as you say, targeting 1c is going to be way
too risky, at least if someone would want to sell it to the masses.

As I've said in other threads, I'm fairly sure some company on the
market is going to reach 2c (with similar features as Squeezebox) and
it's going to be interesting to see who gets there first. Unless someone
have an urgent need to make a decision already now, I would suggest it's
better to wait and see what happens during the next 6-12 months and then
evaluate the situation again. We can always enjoy our Squeezeboxes and
experiement with DIY solutions like the one discussed in this thread
while we wait. I suspect we are going to see some interesting things
happening during the next 6-12 months, maybe something in line with 2c
(with similar features as Squeezebox) isn't as far away as some people
think it is.

If someone is targeting 2c and want to provide similar features as
Squeezebox, we are probably going to see the feature set start with a
bit less features and be enhanced over time to eventually support all
important features available on Squeezebox. I would personally keep my
eyes open for solutions which seems to be open both on hardware and
software side, that kind of solutions have the biggest chance to be
enhanced over time, kind of similar to how Squeezeboxes have been
enhanced through different kind of third party solutions, for example
like the one discussed in this thread, Vortexbox, SqueezePlug and all
the third party plugins/applets/apps available.


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[JJZolx]

I'd be curious to know... Of all the people posting here with their gung
ho enthusiasm for such a piece of equipment, how many will actually buy
one or more at the expected price of (what are we up to now?) $300-$400?
Personally, I have more Squeezeboxes than I know what to do with. I
would have to think that nearly everyone else here does also. If I were
to buy one, it would mostly be to play around with.

For this to be doable, even to have a run of, say, 100 units, it needs
to be viable as a Squeezebox replacement that is usable by someone
completely new to the Squeezebox ecosystem. Someone, who if they said
"I've always wanted to try a Squeezebox, but I can't buy one", you could
recommend without reservation that they purchase one of these devices
rather than telling them to watch for a used Touch on ebay or
Craigslist.


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[erland]

Post by JJZolx
I'd be curious to know... Of all the people posting here with their gung
ho enthusiasm for such a piece of equipment, how many will actually buy
one or more at the expected price of (what are we up to now?) $300-$400?
Personally, I have more Squeezeboxes than I know what to do with. I
would have to think that nearly everyone else here does also. If I were
to buy one, it would mostly be to play around with.
For this to be doable, even to have a run of, say, 100 units, it needs
to be viable as a Squeezebox replacement that is usable by someone
completely new to the Squeezebox ecosystem. Someone, who if they said
"I've always wanted to try a Squeezebox, but I can't buy one", you could
recommend without reservation that they purchase one of these devices
rather than telling them to watch for a used Touch on ebay or
Craigslist.

I'm fairly sure there are 100 people on these forums who would be
interested just because it's fun to do a DIY solution, there are a lot
of geeks around here, some posting but also a lot who isn't active
posters.

Selling it for $300-$400 to someone who is not a DIY geek and doesn't
own a Squeezebox already is going to be hard.
I suspect you will be able to build it for less than $300, as I've
understood it's just the case and power supply that's missing, but it
will still be hard to sell it to someone who isn't owning a Squeezebox
and isn't a DIY geek. They would prefer to get a used Squeezebox from
eBay or just get a Sonos or one of the other alternatives available in
their local store for similar price.

However, are we really targeting users who don't have a Squeezebox
already ?
To me it feels like the initial target would be DIY geeks on these
forums and possibly also some enthusiasts who aren't scared to try
something new, all owning at least one Squeezebox already and loving the
Squeezebox system and interested to try something new.


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[Mnyb]

It is a good alpha/beta test of the "production line" :) can the
community design build sell and distribute a product handle warranty
provide documentation and help ? that in itself needs to be tested too
.

So I would probably get a "community squeezebox mk1" just for the heck
of it and test the thing .


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[JJZolx]

Post by erland
Selling it for $300-$400 to someone who is not a DIY geek and doesn't
own a Squeezebox already is going to be hard.
I suspect you will be able to build it for less than $300, as I've
understood it's just the case and power supply that's missing, but it
will still be hard to sell it to someone who isn't owning a Squeezebox
and isn't a DIY geek. They would prefer to get a used Squeezebox from
eBay or just get a Sonos or one of the other alternatives available in
their local store for similar price.

Recommending someone buy something isn't quite the same thing as
"selling" it.

Post by erland
From the discussion, we're not talking what I'd call DIY any more. If it

relies on the existing LMS and its infrastructure, that part of the
setup is no different than Squeezebox, and while installation and setup
have never really been perfected, plenty of neophytes have gotten LMS up
and running with little instruction. The device itself would be
comparable to a Receiver, and with a web interface for network
configuration, it could arguably be even easier to set up.

Post by erland
However, are we really targeting users who don't have a Squeezebox
already ?

You keep using words like "targeting" and "sell".

Do you have commercial aspirations for this project?


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[erland]

Post by erland
From the discussion, we're not talking what I'd call DIY any more. If it
relies on the existing LMS and its infrastructure, that part of the
setup is no different than Squeezebox, and while installation and setup
have never really been perfected, plenty of neophytes have gotten LMS up
and running with little instruction. The device itself would be
comparable to a Receiver, and with a web interface for network
configuration, it could arguably be even easier to set up.

With DIY I meant that each user would have to buy the parts and assemble
it themselves and download and install the software, even if the
software part would just be a matter of downloading an image and loading
it to a SDHC card (or similar). This is all a big step compared to
getting a Squeezebox Receiver in the store.

If someone would decide to sell it per-assembled and pre-installed they
would end up with patent/licensing issues regarding MP3, WMA, AAC codecs
as far as I've understood, since it would then be considered to be a end
consumer device where these patents/licenses applies. Getting the
necessary licenses would increase the price a bit more and would in
worst case make it too expensive even for enthusiasts, especially if you
can only sell it to 100 people where the MP3 license would add $150 to
each device. Not sure if it would be possible to solve by letting the
user install the codecs themselves, but that would make it even more
complex to set it up and make it kind of a DIY device again.

Post by erland
You keep using words like "targeting" and "sell".
Do you have commercial aspirations for this project?

No, not at this time, but someone designing a new hardware needs to
decide what type of users they will be able to recommend/convince to buy
it. If you don't do this, you can easily end up in a scenario where you
add a lot of features which the users buying it won't need or a scenario
where it misses features which would be needed for people to buy it.


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[JJZolx]

Post by erland
With DIY I meant that each user would have to buy the parts and assemble
it themselves and download and install the software, even if the
software part would just be a matter of downloading an image and loading
it to a SDHC card (or similar). This is all a big step compared to
getting a Squeezebox Receiver in the store.

We're talking about some kind of kit? Didn't sound like that to me from
John's posts. If you're just talking about installing a board in a case,
I'm game, but all that saves anyone packaging these things is a couple
of minutes work. If you're talking about soldering RCA jacks and antenna
leads, fuggedaboutit.

Post by erland
If someone would decide to sell it per-assembled and pre-installed they
would end up with patent/licensing issues regarding MP3, WMA, AAC codecs
as far as I've understood, since it would then be considered to be a end
consumer device where these patents/licenses applies. Getting the
necessary licenses would increase the price a bit more and would in
worst case make it too expensive even for enthusiasts, especially if you
can only sell it to 100 people where the MP3 license would add $150 to
each device. Not sure if it would be possible to solve by letting the
user install the codecs themselves, but that would make it even more
complex to set it up and make it kind of a DIY device again.

I'd be interested in hearing other opinions about whether your concerns
over pre-installing the necessary software are valid. I can see what
you're saying about codecs, but the OS image itself? Wouldn't it be
possible to automate the installation of the software necessary for the
codecs from the planned web interface, possibly even making it part of
the installation process itself? Scripts that would download and install
the software, much like the extension downloader of LMS.


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[erland]

Post by JJZolx
We're talking about some kind of kit? Didn't sound like that to me from
John's posts. If you're just talking about installing a board in a case,
I'm game, but all that saves anyone packaging these things is a couple
of minutes work. If you're talking about soldering RCA jacks and antenna
leads, fuggedaboutit.

My guess is that it would be similar to a Raspberry Pi, basically you
would just have to install the board in a case, no soldering should be
needed unless I'm missing something.

Post by JJZolx
I'd be interested in hearing other opinions about whether your concerns
over pre-installing the necessary software are valid. I can see what
you're saying about codecs, but the OS image itself? Wouldn't it be
possible to automate the installation of the software necessary for the
codecs from the planned web interface, possibly even making it part of
the installation process itself? Scripts that would download and install
the software, much like the extension downloader of LMS.

Agreed, would be good to get some information from someone who knows
this stuff, I just read a bit yesterday and found the license prices
here:
http://mp3licensing.com/royalty/hardware.html
(It's the minimum $15 000/year fee which is the issue)

I suspect you can't have it pre-installed on an image, I'm not sure if a
way around it would to download and install it automatically during
installation. Most application I've seen seem to instruct users to
download and install mp3 decoders manually completely separate from the
application, so that would definitely be an option, but it would make
the installation process a bit more complex.


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[Mnyb]

Post by erland
My guess is that it would be similar to a Raspberry Pi, basically you
would just have to install the board in a case, no soldering should be
needed unless I'm missing something.
Agreed, would be good to get some information from someone who knows
this stuff, I just read a bit yesterday and found the license prices
http://mp3licensing.com/royalty/hardware.html
(It's the minimum $15 000/year fee which is the issue)
I suspect you can't have it pre-installed on an image, I'm not sure if a
way around it would to download and install it automatically during
installation. Most application I've seen seem to instruct users to
download and install mp3 decoders manually completely separate from the
application, so that would definitely be an option, but it would make
the installation process a bit more complex.

Cant it just be a run once script that installs LAME or MAD or (insert
decoder ) at the first convenient possibility . The it is at least
technically the end user who is doing it .


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[JackOfAll]

Another point...... Going back to what John was saying about including a
DAC chip with built-in OS/DF turned off and using FPGA (software) for
OS/DF...... If that is part of the design, while using an external DAC
would always be option, I suspect we're talking about Transporter (or
better) analogue out SQ by default, not that of a $20 PCM270* eBay USB
DAC. While that might not interest the mass market that is only
interested in the best price possible, even if priced at $400, my
feeling is that it will be cheap for what you are will be getting.


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[dustinsterk]

Post by JohnSwenson
What I am thinking about is one of the TI cortex A8 CPUs, armV7 based
with the VFPv3 floating point unit. The ones I'm looking at are in the
600-700MHz range. You can get faster ones but they cost more, and are
only available on the bigger chips which are much harder to route, which
most likely means a more expensive board.
The design I'm thinking of has 256MB memory, it's easy to go to 512MB
but the memory chip costs 3 times as much for doubling the capacity.
Anything above 512MB means multiple memory chips which again increases
the board cost.
If you go up to 1GHz models you have to switch memory chip architecture
which again costs more.
You can go up to 2.7GHz versions, but it's a HUGE chip that is going to
take a pretty expensive board.
I'm thinking that the 600MHz version is more than enough for just a
player. If we start adding a server at the same time we probably want at
least the 1GHz version, it will be a bit more expensive though. Anything
above 1GHz is going to cost a lot more. With a 1GHz processor and 512MB
of memory it's probably in the $200 to $220 range for the board.
John S.

John,
Thank you for researching these items...this is very exciting! I am
interested in the DAC and wireless chipset you have found. The ability
to create its own network and possibly mesh multiple players is very
interesting and really allows the product to be self contained without
the need for additional equipment that an everyday user may or may not
own. I think this feature alone could appeal to the masses. Allowing
for the product to be truly plug and play is something that squeezebox
fell very short on and it why I feel it never took off.

I would also agree that the additional cost for the 1GHz, 512MB is worth
it. This would leave additional room for expansion to incorporate LMS
(or some other server), etc. I also think that IR is important if we
ever plan on utilizing the HDMI output for the display. The headphone
jack, while not a must, maybe nice for some.

To Triode's point, we do need to validate it has real ehci usb
hardware.

As far as a prototype of this board, how many would need to be ordered
to start? Would there be an initial build fee, etc?

--Dustin


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[Triode]

Post by JohnSwenson
What I am thinking about is one of the TI cortex A8 CPUs, armV7 based
with the VFPv3 floating point unit. The ones I'm looking at are in the
600-700MHz range. You can get faster ones but they cost more, and are
only available on the bigger chips which are much harder to route, which
most likely means a more expensive board.
The design I'm thinking of has 256MB memory, it's easy to go to 512MB
but the memory chip costs 3 times as much for doubling the capacity.
Anything above 512MB means multiple memory chips which again increases
the board cost.
If you go up to 1GHz models you have to switch memory chip architecture
which again costs more.
You can go up to 2.7GHz versions, but it's a HUGE chip that is going to
take a pretty expensive board.
I'm thinking that the 600MHz version is more than enough for just a
player. If we start adding a server at the same time we probably want at
least the 1GHz version, it will be a bit more expensive though. Anything
above 1GHz is going to cost a lot more. With a 1GHz processor and 512MB
of memory it's probably in the $200 to $220 range for the board.
John S.

This sounds good - can we validate the usb support. Must have ehci,
most soc implementations I've tested need external TTs though for 1.1
support.

If we had 256M of memory then I think some form of custom UI for us is
the way to go, rather than trying to run something bigger and use its
scripting engine (I was looking at XBMC). I'm assuming you need to
dedicate a portion of this to the graphics and I think we want enough
for a 1080p display, but not for fancy rendering etc?


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[JohnSwenson]

Post by Triode
This sounds good - can we validate the usb support. Must have ehci,
most soc implementations I've tested need external TTs though for 1.1
support.
If we had 256M of memory then I think some form of custom UI for us is
the way to go, rather than trying to run something bigger and use its
scripting engine (I was looking at XBMC). I'm assuming you need to
dedicate a portion of this to the graphics and I think we want enough
for a 1080p display, but not for fancy rendering etc?

I don't the answer, people are using EHCI and UAC (I don't know what
flavor) without problems. The BeagleBone uses a processor from the same
series and would probably be the easiest way to actually test the USB.

John S.


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[JohnSwenson]

A couple thoughts: why would anybody want this board?
It has audio specific stuff on it you won't find on other general
purpose computer boards, specifically an analog DAC output that is
significantly better than what is on the Touch, you would have to get at
least a $1000 USB DAC to get in this quality range. Very low jitter
clocks (much lower than the ones in the Touch, but not as good as some
of the best external DACs), a highly optimized S/PDIF coax output that
is better than almost anything else out there no matter what the price.
The beauty of this concept is that these extra "audiophile" options are
easy and inexpensive to add when you are building them in from the
ground up. It's when you take an existing general purpose system and try
and add this as outboard "add-ons" that it gets quite expensive. I
really want to do this with those extra options because that is what
differentiates this from say a CuBox.

There ARE large initial setup fees for doing this, that is why I
mentioned 25 units, at that price the amortization of the setup charge
starts getting lower than the cost of the actual parts. Below that you
can still do it, but the cost per board skyrockets.

What I am envisioning is a fairly simple first board, primarily designed
to be a black box player, I would like to leave off the HDMI for the
first board, it adds a significant amount of complexity. Designing this
board will be fairly straight forward so something can be done and out
there to a few developers quite quickly. I did some more checking and
found out that the 1GHz processor is actually easier to layout than the
600MHz one, they did a much better job of optimizing the ball layout.
The interesting thing is that the price in small quantities is almost
identical. So I'll just go with the 1GHz processor. We have a choice of
256MB or 512MB and keep it with a single chip. The 512MB one costs $20
more and is significantly more work in the layout. (the board won't cost
more, but it will take longer to get layed out) Because of the more
layout effort I'm thinking it might be a good idea to go with the 256MB
for the first board.

Once these boards are out the software types can get a working linux
distribution with Squeezelite handling the SB part. The idea is that the
firmware is one file that gets written to an SD card which when booted
by the board has it up and running as a black box receiver. Until that
point it WILL be a geek fest to get it working, but because the mission
is simple (black box receiver) it hopefully will not take too long to
get a firmware file up and running.

This process gives a working board that does not need a full blown geek
to get working (plug in the SD-card, turn it on), at that point we have
something that might appeal to more people and we can start looking at
industrial design and options for a more flexible board (display
outputs, running server etc), but I think its a good idea to start with
a very simple one first to get bugs ironed out and find out what it is
capable of doing.

John S.


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[JackOfAll]

I really want to do this with those extra options because that is what
differentiates this from say a CuBox.

COAX, USB and a decent DAC onboard. Would you still do the OS/DF in
FPGA? I guess this is really pushing my luck, but any chance of an I2S
output?

There ARE large initial setup fees for doing this, that is why I
mentioned 25 units, at that price the amortization of the setup charge
starts getting lower than the cost of the actual parts. Below that you
can still do it, but the cost per board skyrockets.

I don't think you would have any problem getting up-front commitments
for 25 units.

The 512MB one costs $20 more and is significantly more work in the
layout. (the board won't cost more, but it will take longer to get layed
out) Because of the more layout effort I'm thinking it might be a good
idea to go with the 256MB for the first board.

I really do think you should shoot for 512MB from the off, even if add
adds time to delivery because of the increased layout complexity.

Once these boards are out the software types can get a working linux
distribution with Squeezelite handling the SB part. The idea is that the
firmware is one file that gets written to an SD card which when booted
by the board has it up and running as a black box receiver. Until that
point it WILL be a geek fest to get it working, but because the mission
is simple (black box receiver) it hopefully will not take too long to
get a firmware file up and running.

A days work! ;)


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[erland]

Post by JohnSwenson
What I am envisioning is a fairly simple first board, primarily designed
to be a black box player, I would like to leave off the HDMI for the
first board, it adds a significant amount of complexity. Designing this
board will be fairly straight forward so something can be done and out
there to a few developers quite quickly.
...
This process gives a working board that does not need a full blown geek
to get working (plug in the SD-card, turn it on), at that point we have
something that might appeal to more people and we can start looking at
industrial design and options for a more flexible board (display
outputs, running server etc), but I think its a good idea to start with
a very simple one first to get bugs ironed out and find out what it is
capable of doing.

So, if I understand you correctly, what you are basically saying is:
1. Iteration 1: Create a batch of 25 boards to the most interesting
people around here, preferably the group would be a mix of audiophiles,
software developers and DIY enthusiasts.
2. Let them experiment a bit and implement/package the software for it.
3. Iteration 2: Review the experimentation, re-design what's needed to
make it future proof and design a new board that could be produced for a
bit more people, possibly even pre-packaged in a case with pre-installed
software.

In this scenario, my priorities would be to make something as fast as
possible in iteration 1, as long as you are reasonably sure that:
- The changes in iteration 2 will still work with the software written
for iteration 1
- The changes in iteration 2 will result in similar or better audio
characteristics compared to iteration 1

In my mind, it's important that we can use the experimentation of
iteration 1 board to improve the board in iteration 2.

Top notch audio quality and making it future proof is not important in
iteration 1, it will be a temporary solution and you just need something
that's good enough to allow the experimentation needed to evolve it to
the iteration 2 board.

CPU and memory isn't important in iteration 1 as long as you feel that
you are prepared to improve both of them in iteration 1. You are not
going to want to improve it because of the experimentation on iteration
1 board, you are going to want to improve it to make room for future
software improvements which will happen after iteration 2 board has been
released.

For iteration 1 board, you could safely go with a 600MHz CPU and 128MB
memory if you like, as long as you are prepared to change it to 1GHz+
and 512MB+ in iteration 2 to make it more future proof when you add the
HDMI output. For iteration 1 (without HDMI output), 600MHz and 128MB
will be plenty, nobody is going to do something that requires more than
that during experimentation on iteration 1 board. The faster CPU and
more memory is needed for things that might happen months after the
iteration 2 board has been released. The people signing up for iteration
1 board will likely have no problem to also sign up for iteration 2
board, but the people who only sign up for iteration 2 board is going to
expect something that works on longer terms, they don't want to hear
that an improved iteration 3 board revision is available 3 months after
they purchased the iteration 2 board, at least not unless you explicitly
also say that iteration 2 is a temporary board for further
experimentation.

For iteration 1 board, I'm not sure you even need the built-in DAC if
that delays iteration 1 or makes it more expensive, because from a
software perspective iteration 1 will focus on developers who try to
experiment how to get the software to work properly with USB DAC's and
S/PDIF connected amplifiers. If you feel the DAC part needs some
experimentation by the 25 developers/audiophiles, and you put it on a
separate board, you can maybe even first design and release the main
board and then a bit later design and release the DAC sub board. You can
even choose to skip the S/PDIF in the iteration 1 board, but doing that
might result in that you might get a harder time to find 25 people with
development experience to participate, some people who are developers
and would be willing to test iteration 1 probably don't own a good USB
DAC today and isn't prepared to buy a good USB DAC as a temporary
solution just to try iteration 1 board.

As I look at it, the parts that can result in significant more memory
needed in the future is:
- HDMI output: People are going to want to show a lot of cool things on
the TV and this will require more CPU and memory, since the HDMI output
isn't part of iteration 1, you won't see the needs during
experimentation, so you have to guess a bit what's needed. Obvious use
cases that people are going to request to be able to show through HDMI
output are hires album art, VU meters/visualization and maybe even
video. I know video is to ask a bit much, but you are definitely going
to get requests for that if you add a HDMI output because people are
going to start thinking about AirPlay support pretty soon.
- Audio processing like room correction, equalizer and similar things:
Most of this could maybe be handled by the DSP and not affect the CPU
much, but if the CPU is involved it could require a faster CPU and
possibly also more memory.
- Built in server: This is going to require both more memory and faster
CPU, but based on what I know I'm not convinced this is what we should
design for. It really doesn't make sense to design the hardware to run
LMS in each individual player, if we want a solution without a computer
we probably want a solution which doesn't rely on LMS and then the
server part (if needed at all) can be designed a lot more lightweight
than LMS is today. Whatever we do, we don't want to repeat Logitech's
mistake and try to run LMS on a device which doesn't have the necessary
resources, that will just result in disappointing users and a lot of
complaints.


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[JJZolx]

As the design and the board progresses, would it eventually have onboard
flash memory, or is it always envisioned as loading from an SD card?


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[Triode]

Post by JJZolx
As the design and the board progresses, would it eventually have onboard
flash memory, or is it always envisioned as loading from an SD card?

I think keeping all the flash on a card (micros SD) is probably best as
it makes it easy to avoid the "bricking" scenario - asking someone to
remove the card and reflash it from a PC is much easier than the
debricking process we have with touch or the non existant debrick on
radio... For a community project there will be much less QA so there is
a risk of this...


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[chill]

Post by JohnSwenson
A couple thoughts: why would anybody want this board?
It has audio specific stuff on it you won't find on other general
purpose computer boards, specifically an analog DAC output that is
significantly better than what is on the Touch, you would have to get at
least a $1000 USB DAC to get in this quality range. Very low jitter
clocks (much lower than the ones in the Touch, but not as good as some
of the best external DACs), a highly optimized S/PDIF coax output that
is better than almost anything else out there no matter what the price.
The beauty of this concept is that these extra "audiophile" options are
easy and inexpensive to add when you are building them in from the
ground up. It's when you take an existing general purpose system and try
and add this as outboard "add-ons" that it gets quite expensive. I
really want to do this with those extra options because that is what
differentiates this from say a CuBox.

These are indeed the reasons that this product will stand out.
Audiophile performance on a DIY budget. Even if the rest of the world
remains unconvinced about Squeezebox and prefers their Sonos or Airplay
systems, in this community we know the value of the Squeezebox
ecosystem, and whilst off-the-shelf hardware is already filling some of
the player gap, I think a player whose design focus from the outset is
very high SQ will go like hot cakes in this community. I'd also hope
that the power supply part will conform to John's very high standards in
this area.

I'm no software developer, I've already got all the Squeezeboxes I need
(and a spare Touch in the loft) but I still want in on one of the first
batch of 'our' player. I might use it to replace the currently dormant
SB2 that I built into my DIY preamp a couple of years ago. Any chance
of a balanced output as well as RCA?


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[JohnSwenson]

There should be no soldering needed to make the board useful. The wifi
is a mini-PCIe form factor, it just pushes into the socket. You DO have
to plug in an antenna of some sort, its a standard UFL jack on the
module.

All the other connectors are on the board, putting it in the case is
just putting it in place so the connectors go through the holes and
either screwing the board in or pushing down onto some of those nylon
hold downs.

I really want to put the DAC on the GEN1 board. It's a new design I
haven't used before and I want to have a platform to play around with
the internal DSP. I want to find out how good we can make this sound.

Someone else brought up an interesting aspect, if the DSP is done in the
DAC, it can't be applied to the S/PDIF or USB. For just straight
playback, that won't matter since the only thing I will be doing with at
least at first is the interpolation filter, which is already included in
any external DAC. For long term GEN2 it might be best to have the FPGA
DSP based system, then you can do anything you want and it will be
useful for all outputs. But that is definitely NOT going to be in GEN1.


I did some more poking around the processor/memory issues, it's a bit
more complicated than I thought at first. It looks like the best bet for
GEN1 is a 720MHz processor and 256MB RAM. This does not have TDMI
interface, it does have an LCD interface. For GEN2 a 1GHz processor and
512MB RAM, this comes with a full blown video controller and built in
HDMI and VGA interface. No need for external chips, just hook up
connectors. The GEN1 is a much simpler board layout task so I would like
to go with it. I COULD do the faster processor from the get-go, put its
more work and costs a little more (about $10 more for the board, about
$15 more for the processor and $20 more for the memory).

I actually did a full quote on board costs and its actually right around
what I thought, the board and assembly for a GEN1 will be $64 for 25,
The GEN2 is about $75. So the rest of the cost is the parts which look
like around $90 to $100 for a Gen 1. So that hits the $170 for the
board. It's $35 for the wifi module which you can add at any time. The
place I'm working with does the parts procurement as well, so it's just
send files and money and a couple weeks later get a box of fully
assembled boards.

The Gen1 board will have no display, so all development has to be over
ssh or serial port. I'll probably put a serial port on it so you can
have a hardware console during boot.

So it looks like it will have an ethernet jack, 2 USB-A jacks, serial
jack, S/PDIF coax, 2 RCA jacks. The big question is, should it have a
headphone jack. The easy, inexpensive headphone circuits are not all
that great and add more complexity to the board. I know how to make a
REALLY good headphone amp, but it will add quite a bit of complexity to
the board and some extra cost. So what are your thoughts:
1; no headphone jack
2; simple, cheap, not so great
3; whole hog really good, but complex and pricy.

John S.


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[eLR!C]

That sounds really great : the specs you propose (i.e. included DAC and
defaut jacks) and the related price make sense to me .
I personnaly don't need the TOSLINK and depending on complexity, an IR
receiver could be great (as I found it grear that with SB3 you don't
need to power your phone or computer to do play / pause / modify
volume)

As far as the headphone is concerned, a cheap jack could be useful for
debugging the interface during night development but is not mandatory

(btw, count me in)


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[JJZolx]

I'd vote simple, cheap headphone jack.

Did you forget to mention the SD card slot, or would there be no
external slot?

Would most connectors be on just the rear edge of the board? Not
important on the first go 'round, but I think it's important, rather
than having a player with connectors and cables coming off of several
sides. The headphone jack could be on the side, and also the SD card
slot, if there is one.

Is it possible to design a box that could completely power down the wifi
radio when it's not in use?

What bitrates would this Squeezebox ultimately be capable of?


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[JJZolx]

BTW, John... Where are you located? Perhaps we can find someone nearby
to help you with shipping and some of the other logistics of
distributing the boards.


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[erland]

Post by JohnSwenson
I really want to put the DAC on the GEN1 board. It's a new design I
haven't used before and I want to have a platform to play around with
the internal DSP. I want to find out how good we can make this sound.

Ok, then it makes sense.
I'm definitely willing to pay for it just to make it possible for you to
experiment with it so we can get something really great in GEN2.

Post by JohnSwenson
I did some more poking around the processor/memory issues, it's a bit
more complicated than I thought at first. It looks like the best bet for
GEN1 is a 720MHz processor and 256MB RAM. This does not have TDMI
interface, it does have an LCD interface. For GEN2 a 1GHz processor and
512MB RAM, this comes with a full blown video controller and built in
HDMI and VGA interface. No need for external chips, just hook up
connectors. The GEN1 is a much simpler board layout task so I would like
to go with it. I COULD do the faster processor from the get-go, put its
more work and costs a little more (about $10 more for the board, about
$15 more for the processor and $20 more for the memory).

I would go with the slower CPU and less memory for GEN1, since GEN1 is
just a temporary experimentation platform to get to GEN2 it doesn't make
sense that people should have to pay for the more expensive CPU/memory
both in GEN1 and GEN2. For GEN2 I definitely want the faster CPU/memory
to make it more future proof.

Post by JohnSwenson
So it looks like it will have an ethernet jack, 2 USB-A jacks, serial
jack, S/PDIF coax, 2 RCA jacks, SD card (probably a micro), power jack,
socket for Wifi module. Anything else I need in there?

For GEN2, some kind of line-in would be nice if you believe GEN2 in the
future could be packaged in a case with built-in speakers, the line-in
on the Squeezebox Boom can be really useful if you want to use it as a
speaker for external sources like a smart phone or similar device. If
you think a product with built-in speakers would require a completely
different board, a line-in doesn't make sense at this stage.

IR and HDMI would also be of interest for GEN2, but that has already
been mentioned earlier.

Post by JohnSwenson
The big question is, should it have a headphone jack. The easy,
inexpensive headphone circuits are not all that great and add more
complexity to the board. I know how to make a REALLY good headphone amp,
but it will add quite a bit of complexity to the board and some extra
1; no headphone jack
2; simple, cheap, not so great
3; whole hog really good, but complex and pricy.

For GEN1 it isn't needed at all.
For GEN2 something with similar audio quality as the Squeezeboxes is
probably a good idea.

Post by JohnSwenson
Also should it have a TOSLINK?

In my opinion the S/PDIF is enough.
However, if you can add the TOSLINK without adding a lot of complexity
or cost, having both TOSLINK and S/PDIF in GEN2 could be nice for people
who only have free TOSLINK connections in their DACs/Amplifiers.


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[JJZolx]

Post by JohnSwenson
Some quick thinking and back of envelope figures comes up with the
...
How does that sound, any thoughts?

Headphone jack?

What about an IR receiver? It would be nice to be leave open the
possibility of one day implementing a user interface, or at least having
basic (if blind) player control. Plus the ability (with the headphone
jack) to use IR Blaster.

I'm having a hard time seeing all those I/O connectors on a device that
is 3" x 3". Something the size of an SB2 or larger would be fine with
me. For sound quality, I would think the proximity of components on the
board plays a role. Does cost go up much if that board is 3" x 6" or 4"
x 8"?


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[epoch1970]

Post by JohnSwenson
How does that sound, any thoughts?

VLAN support sounds great, and I suppose this means gigabit ethernet ?
Then a single ethernet port would do for a router-on-a-stick
configuration. Would save cost and power I guess.
In fact, I find VLAN extremely interesting. SBS setup, particularly
networking/DNS seems a sore point for many. Over here in France we have
an ISP called Free; they offer an internet gateway+a tv box; Plug both
in your network -or via the provided CPL plugs- and automagically
everything works: they use a specific VLAN to create the link between
the 2, so the internet gateway can run a dhcp server and all services
and QoS polcies needed, in its own realm. Nobody uses VLANs at home
-except for VOIP perhaps, so what you get is a factory configured
player-server pair, that works out-of-the box 99,99% times -and the
0.01% can understand why it's not working… True plug and play exists,
I've seen it.

An NTP server would be nice, too.

I think a physical power button, and possibly physical rf-kill button
would be pleasing.

If that thing is able to do room correction, does it make sense to have
a mic in port for the device to figure out by itself what filter is
needed ? (totally naive question; I've used once in my life an eq w/
pink noise generator.)

I too, vote for headphone/IR out, for IR Blasting.

And for a lot of headroom. If I had choice between $170 w/ 256MB ram and
$190 w/ 1 or 2GB, I would not hesitate a second and choose the latter.
One of the beauties of the SB3 was its ability to improve over time,
just with firmware upgrades. It was a thin device. If the new player is
fat -and controlling the QoS would be one of the few good reasons- then
I think we need a lot of free room -and power too. I keep my
amps/speakers 10 years at least, the SB3 longevity was perfectly fit,
and exemplary IMO.

Just my 2cts. With many thanks.


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[pssc]

Post by Triode
1) target a small number of linux devices and create some standard
install scripts/images for them
2) start with a headless system (no ui, but target a device with hdmi
interface as we can expand into hdmi based user interface relatively
easliy); users can use LMS web interface, iPeng, SqueezePad etc to
controll it
3) start with usb audio as this means we can use off the shelf hardware
and let the user select the level of audio engineering they want from $5
upwards...
4) assume the user has some involvement in the install process and we
are not charging for the solution, so this allows the user to download
standard linux codecs without concerns over patent licensing...

I'd support this approach I think the PI would make an inexpensive
platform for people, I have squeeze play work already on this platform
with stable audio, with appropriate packages a pre installed image or an
install from the pi base image should be doable,

Phill.


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[JackOfAll]

Post by pssc
I'd support this approach I think the PI would make an inexpensive
platform for people, I have squeeze play work already on this platform
with stable audio, with appropriate packages a pre installed image or an
install from the pi base image should be doable,

Yes, but the Pi onboard audio leaves more than a little to be desired
from a SQ perspective. And as soon as you connect a UAC2 DAC you find
out that the Pi is somewhat less than desirable as a platform in that
regard, as well.


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[Triode]

Post by JackOfAll
Yes, but the Pi onboard audio leaves more than a little to be desired
from a SQ perspective. And as soon as you connect a UAC2 DAC you find
out that the Pi is somewhat less than desirable as a platform in that
regard, as well.

I believe this to be very dac dependant - its useless for my dac, but
others have not problems.. Its a great target if the usb can be made to
work..


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[JackOfAll]

Post by Triode
I believe this to be very dac dependant - its useless for my dac, but
others have not problems.. Its a great target if the usb can be made to
work..

OK, well to quantify, I've yet to find a report of any UAC2 async
implementation working well. By that I mean without any glitches at all.
Sure, you can fiddle around with buffer sizes, but if USB packets are
being dropped, which is what I believe is happening, it's game over. I
have a gut feeling that it is not going to be fixed with a software
update any time soon. I'm not holding my breath.

Post by Triode
From my own point of view, I've tried just about every UAC2 capable

chipset that exists with it. Even the reference XMOS design, with which
I have not had a problem with any other piece of hardware on which I can
compile and run the alsa usb driver. YMMV.


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[pssc]

Post by JackOfAll
Yes, but the Pi onboard audio leaves more than a little to be desired
from a SQ perspective. And as soon as you connect a UAC2 DAC you find
out that the Pi is somewhat less than desirable as a platform in that
regard, as well.

Yes the Pi has audio has issues and the PI foundation is investing in
sorting this out and trying to sort the USB issues you can get stable
audio via the right sort of USB DAC/sound card and when the ausio issues
are sorted the HMI can feed an AV amp anyway... bear in mind we would
have to buy a platform the was already supported by the linux kernel, I
think it is easy to underestimate how difficult its all is to get
working you can see that from the Pi and the issues there and it has
substantial momentum which is important for projects such as this that
and it will be around a bit longer than your standard package. If we
try and to it all I think we are doomed to failure I suspect what we
really want to do is moce forward the software platform that is
squeezebox, so we cant take advantage of any suitable hardware.

Phill.


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[eLR!C]

Just a quick Pi based solution costing (tax / shipping excluded) of a
wired SB3 style replacement :
- Pi B : 35$
- HiFiDIY Sabre USB DAC : 42 $
- 128 x 64 LCD Screen : 15$
- IR receiver : 3$
- Power : 10$
- few resistors, cables, solder, plugs, etc ... : 10$

TOTAL : 115$

Still miss a decent case, though ...

NB : Pi based because of its :
- linux / squeezelite support
- GPIO/SPI ports available
- python / C available libraries to interface screen and IR


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[JackOfAll]

Post by pssc
Yes the Pi has audio has issues and the PI foundation is investing in
sorting this out and trying to sort the USB issues ....

On the 1/1/2013, there was a post over on the Pi forum form jamesh, (who
is also a Broadcom employee), talking about the Pi's USB implementation.
(ie. the Synopsys IP included on the Broadcom SoC.)

Post by pssc
Yes, the Synopsis design is a bit pants. Broadcom didn't know that at
the time. It's quite possible this is the first time this design has
been used as a host - the client side works fine which is what is
usually used in systems that use the design - so its entirely possible
no-one has ever encountered the problems before. Now on to the legal
stuff. Broadcom are NOT ALLOWED to distribute the RTL or the
documentation for this design. It part of the legal contract between
Broadcom and Synopsis drawn up when the design was bought. It would be
good if they could, because there are indeed some decent engineers out
there. But they cannot. This is the COMPLETELY standard approach to this
- chip companies buy designs from others, and those designs are built in
to chips. But most people never know that the chip they are using uses
IP from many sources, because its all handled by the end supplier (in
this case Broadcom).

On the basis that he is one of the few people that are privy to the IP
and any documentation, (by virtue of being a Broadcom employee), and he
describes it as being a "bit pants", I wont be holding my breath that
we'll ever hear "perfect" audio from a UAC2 device driven from a Pi.
Others, can come to their own conclusions. But I personally, wouldn't
base any audio project where the requirement is for a decent USB out
with which to use an external DAC, on the Pi.


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[JackOfAll]

More as a reference to price than anything else..... I was going to buy
one of these to have a fiddle with but never got around to it.

'A13-OLinuXino'
(https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A13/A13-OLinuXino/)

A8 1GHz, 512MB RAM, for 45 EURO. Wi-Fi version (via a USB port) for an
additional 10 EURO.

On-board USB hub is a GL850G


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[Triode]

Post by JackOfAll
On the basis that he is one of the few people that are privy to the IP
and any documentation, (by virtue of being a Broadcom employee), and he
describes it as being a "bit pants", I wont be holding my breath that
we'll ever hear "perfect" audio from a UAC2 device driven from a Pi.
Others, can come to their own conclusions. But I personally, wouldn't
base any audio project where the requirement is for a decent USB out
with which to use an external DAC, on the Pi.

I tend to agree, but I was being generous to what they may achieve - I
think implementing the missing ehci hardware scheduler in the graphics
processor was being talked about at one point!! Having seen that usb
support on devices is limited and even Touch and most arm chips don't
have full transaction translators (hence need external hubs to support
1.1 devices), my belief is that we need to make sure whatever we target
has full usb support in hardware and no closed source drivers!


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