Discussion:
Pre-Announcement: ickStream
vining
2013-04-06 03:01:47 UTC
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Will there be CLI support for guys integrating syestems with AMX or
Crestron?


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maggior
2013-04-05 19:27:23 UTC
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We have also done some prototyping of running our platform on
Squeezeboxes and have a plugin that makes it possible to use LMS as
content provider for local music. This way we want to make sure you can
keep your Squeezeboxes alive even when Logitech ends the support for
them.
Interesting. This explains some things Erland has said in the forums
:-). It seemed like he was privvy to something going on.

I'm curious what you mean by "running our platrorm on squeezeboxes".
Are you replacing squeezebox firmware? Or are you referring to using
squeezeboxes in a mixed enironment with ickstream devices?


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maggior
2013-04-05 19:31:31 UTC
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One request:
please please please make gapless playback of LAME mp3 and FLAC a "must
have" feature and not something left to be dealt with after release.


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erland
2013-04-05 18:27:09 UTC
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Will this platform take he place of Mysqueezebox.com?
The ickStream system has a cloud server part that will do a bit similar
things as mysqueezebox.com plus a lot more.
It's also built from the ground up to be scalable and reliable with many
users.
I've looked around but haven't found anything matching the Touch's
flexibility and value. I primarily listen to Spotify through Triode's
app. Will I be able to continue this through the new platform.I'm glad
that you care enough to work on his. Many thanks and I look forward to
developments.
We are working on adding support for many different online streaming
services and we will add them gradually, we can't say exactly which ones
that will be available at the initial launch, but support for big online
services like Spotify is definitely something we know is important.
Will we all have opportunity to trial this platform prior to its
release?
Steve
Probably not everyone, but we will gradually add more beta testers so
those who we feel have been good beta testers previously or we know use
the system in a specific way or in a specific environment are good
candidates. We will probably ask in this thread if we have a need for a
certain kind of beta tester and on top of this we also have a mailing
list for people who like to eventually participate in beta testing which
you can register to on our web page http://www.ickstream.com


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pippin
2013-04-05 17:22:17 UTC
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Since some people seem to be getting a bit nervous about the current
situation relating to Squeezebox products and are starting to abandon
the Squeezebox and move to other music streaming platforms, we thought
we would make a brief announcement that we have been working on
something for a while. We initiated the project in 2011 when we started
to see indications of the direction Logitech was moving in and have been
working on it since then in parallel with our other activities.

We have seen the current trend in the market where hardware vendors are
forced to do proprietary software solutions, typically resulting in
users getting locked in to a specific vendor specific solutions with
limited device choices for a good whole house audio experience. On top
of this online streaming providers have to make proprietary integrations
with each individual hardware platform to be able to offer their
services everywhere, resulting in a fragmented experience. UPnP was
supposed to be the solution to some of this but it really never worked
for music.

Our belief is that people don't want to be locked into a specific
hardware vendor, they want to have the option to combine hardware from
different manufacturers in the same system, to use high-end devices in
the main listening room and cheaper devices in kitchen or bedroom. We
also believe people want to use locally stored music as well as music
provided by online streaming services.

Our goal is to provide an open platform which can be integrated with
third party hardware and also enhanced by third party software. We will
provide controllers and players for iOS and Android ourselves, and in
addition to this we are talking to hardware vendors. We have also done
some prototyping of running our platform on Squeezeboxes and have a
plugin that makes it possible to use LMS as content provider for local
music. This way we want to make sure you can keep your Squeezeboxes
alive even when Logitech ends the support for them.

The platform will be commercial because we don't think integration with
online services and long term survival is possible without a charging,
but our current intention is to try keep the community feeling from the
Squeezebox community, where it's possible for third party developers to
easily provide additions for free. To support this we will provide an
API that can be used to extend the system we want that capability build
into the DNA of the system and it's actually an area we are focusing on
right now.

The current state of the platform is that we are doing some alpha
testing with a selection of people from the community and the group of
testers will be extended over time so we can release a first version
available to the public sometime later this year.

Unfortunately we can't share more information than this at the moment,
but feel free to post feedback in this thread if you know things we
should think about to make the solution fit your setup better.

Finally, you are probably wondering who is part of this, so to give you
some idea:
- Joerg Schwieder (pippin): Developer of the iPeng app family for
iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch devices
- Erland Isaksson (erland): Developer of many free and commercial
plugins and applets for the Squeezebox
- James Fearon: Developer of the playback logic in the iPeng app family
- Remco Derksen (remd): Previously in charge of Partnerships and
Business development for the Squeezebox.
- Some of the other third party developers and some
graphics/marketing/business oriented resources

You will find our web site at http://www.ickstream.com where we will
provide more information of the platform as it becomes available.

Finally, please don't worry about our current Squeezebox related work.
Both the iPeng apps and Erland's plugins/applets will continue to be
supported and the new platform has of course taken some inspiration from
our previous work as well as for the things we were not able to do on
the Squeezebox platform in the past.

The ickStream Team
-ickStream - A world of music at your fingertips-


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kidstypike
2013-04-05 21:07:39 UTC
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Terrific news, made my day, thanks guys :)


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erland
2013-04-06 08:11:45 UTC
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When you say you are speaking with other manufacturers does this include
Logitech?
Can't comment on individual hardware manufacturers, but if we see a
business potential we will generally investigate it at an appropriate
time.

If any hardware vendor sees this thread and is interested, you are very
welcome to contact us directly, you will find the contact information on
our web page: http://www.ickstream.com


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Corelli45
2013-04-05 17:54:45 UTC
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I was at the stage of thinking about selling my beloved Squeezebox Touch
but this news is terrific. I have monitored Erland's posts over the past
few months and knew he had something up his sleeve. Will this platform
take he place of Mysqueezebox.com? I've looked around but haven't found
anything matching the Touch's flexibility and value. I primarily listen
to Spotify through Triode's app. Will I be able to continue this through
the new platform.I'm glad that you care enough to work on his. Many
thanks and I look forward to developments. Will we all have opportunity
to trial this platform prior to its release?
Steve


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Corelli45
2013-04-06 06:51:02 UTC
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When you say you are speaking with other manufacturers does this include
Logitech?


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SamS
2013-04-05 20:28:24 UTC
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Terrific news! I look forward to your progress and helping/supporting in
any way that I can.


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SlimChances
2013-04-06 00:28:06 UTC
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Excellent news. I would also appreciate support for MusicIP


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Corelli45
2013-04-05 19:01:12 UTC
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I had been considering an Olive One as it has open architecture and will
include Spotify but your announcement has taken me by surprise. When are
you likely to launch your product?
Steve


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erland
2013-04-06 02:25:44 UTC
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Post by Corelli45
I had been considering an Olive One as it has open architecture and will
include Spotify but your announcement has taken me by surprise. When are
you likely to launch your product?
As mentioned in the initial post the current plan is to launch it
sometime later this year. We want to be sure we have a reasonable
finished product before we launch so we don't want to be more specific
than this at the moment.

Also, the fact that we are only doing software makes it possible for us
to support multiple hardware vendors, which is very different compared
to the Olive One architecture which as far as I've understood is locked
into the single Olive One hardware device they are currently working
on.

In our vision, you would be able to get high end hardware for the main
listening room from your HiFi manufacturer and low end hardware for the
kitchen and bedroom from your favorite mass market manufacturer and as
long as they all support the ickStream platform you will be able to use
them all in the same system and even bring the system with you on your
smart phone or tablet when you leave the home. Who knows, if Olive One
are really open they might even consider supporting ickStream on their
hardware in the future.


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maggior
2013-04-06 00:59:54 UTC
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"Running on Squeezeboxes" currently means our software client runs in
parallel to the MySqueezebox.com integration so you can use the original
system of ours and seamlessly switch but at least right now we don't
have combined playlists or something.
Gapless works right now, I believe, although I would have to
doublecheck? I believe that's currently just an implementation detail.
But both gapless and synchronization are basic design requirements
although syncing in our system is the one thing that is more challenging
compared to the SB although Somos does get it to work fine with a
similar approach.
Thanks Pippin. I'm glad to hear both gapless and synchronized playback
are design requirements.

I'm anxious to see what you guys come up with. Given show is involved,
I'm sure it will be good!!


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Corelli45
2013-04-05 19:38:25 UTC
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Also. Are you linked with John Swenson's development?


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pippin
2013-04-05 21:21:58 UTC
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Post by Corelli45
Also. Are you linked with John Swenson's development?
We are just doing software. But he's aware of what we are doing and we
watch the community squeeze project and I am pretty sure our solution
will run on it.


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bakker_be
2013-04-05 21:32:03 UTC
Permalink
I know MusicIP as as good as dead to some, but even the latest Bowie
still gets analyzed and I use it very much. It's still better than the
smartmix solution powered by the Echonest for me, so support on
ickStream would be very welcome, especially if it works like SpiceFly
Sugarcube.


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erland
2013-04-06 02:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by bakker_be
I know MusicIP as as good as dead to some, but even the latest Bowie
still gets analyzed and I use it very much. It's still better than the
smartmix solution powered by the Echonest for me, so support on
ickStream would be very welcome, especially if it works like SpiceFly
Sugarcube.
Smart playlists/mixes is definitely something we want to support,
especially since it's functionality which is more or less missing from
most other hardware players except for the Squeezebox.

I'm not sure we want to rely on MusicIP, since that product
unfortunately is no longer maintained, but the API's we provide to third
party developers would definitely make it possible for a third party
developer to do an integration with MusicIP similar to SpiceFly
Sugarcube. For people who are happy to run LMS it might even just be an
adjustment of the current Spicefly Sugarcube plugin.


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callesoroe
2013-04-07 18:23:54 UTC
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Post by erland
Smart playlists/mixes is definitely something we want to support,
especially since it's functionality which is more or less missing from
most other hardware players except for the Squeezebox.
I'm not sure we want to rely on MusicIP, since that product
unfortunately is no longer maintained, but the API's we provide to third
party developers would definitely make it possible for a third party
developer to do an integration with MusicIP similar to SpiceFly
Sugarcube. For people who are happy to run LMS it might even just be an
adjustment of the current Spicefly Sugarcube plugin.
Please make sure that we can use our trackstat ratings or at least
export them, so that we not have to rate everything again. It is
essential...... to make smart playlists....


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Mnyb
2013-04-07 18:37:46 UTC
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Will you eventually set-up your own webspace and forum faq, dowloads etc
on http://www.ickstream.com/ now it's just an announcement .

I figure you cant leach of logitechs forum space forever , maybe if
ickStream directly or indirectly enhances their products


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erland
2013-04-07 18:58:38 UTC
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Post by Mnyb
Will you eventually set-up your own webspace and forum faq, dowloads etc
on http://www.ickstream.com/ now it's just an announcement .
We already have, but it's only accessible to the beta group at the
moment.

However, having said that, we really love this community and want it to
exist also in the future, so we would like to avoid a situation where
the community is scattered on multiple sites. I think it would be
preferred to have a bigger community shared among all the different
Squeezebox related projects. There are some non ickStream related
activities going on in this direction at the moment but I can't say
anything more about it yet.


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erland
2013-04-07 19:05:55 UTC
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Post by callesoroe
Please make sure that we can use our trackstat ratings or at least
export them, so that we not have to rate everything again. It is
essential...... to make smart playlists....
Don't worry, I'm in the same situation as you are and I plan to provide
a solution for this.


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Julf
2013-04-07 20:08:48 UTC
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I am very confident with the fact that it is based on a commercial
business model, because it might give possibilities to obtain a stronger
economical market penetration through payed services.
Actually, that is the one part that gives me doubts. I believe the
project would be more viable if it was open source (it could still be
commercial, just as mysql, red hat etc.).


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erland
2013-04-07 21:02:59 UTC
Permalink
I believe the project would be more viable if it was open source (it
could still be commercial, just as mysql, red hat etc.).
Parts of it will be open source, we just can't be more open at this
stage due to the reasons I mentioned earlier in the thread:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?98467-Pre-Announcement-ickStream&p=743640&viewfull=1#post743640
The people in the beta group get access to parts of the code already
today.

As a third party developer for Squeezebox, I would definitely have
preferred documented API's and closed source software over the current
situation with open source software and no documented API's. However,
open source license makes sense for parts where you feel that community
developers could help.

Releasing everything as open source doesn't work because many streaming
services doesn't allow you to expose their API to the public.


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mule
2013-04-07 21:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Maybe i don't get it, but where is the difference to
Logitech/Mysqueezebox.com when you're talking about "payed cloud
service"? When the income will not cover the costs someday, someone will
have to make a decision and close the cloud service as logitech did with
the squeezeboxes. So where is the advantage for us consumers? Just
another name, but with the same end?
Why not build a plattform for everyones own cloud at home?


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Kim Kruse
2013-04-07 19:56:59 UTC
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Hi,

For me this initiative is very good news!

The architecture for the setup looks good, an I am very confident with
the fact that it is based on a commercial business model, because it
might give possibilities to obtain a stronger economical market
penetration through payed services.

I am looking forward to have a single point for the delivery of all the
for me required services, to support my many squeezeboxes and besides
ability to open-up for other streaming devices.

Keep on - and let us hear when we can sign up with payable accounts.

/Kim K


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Peter314
2013-04-05 17:54:27 UTC
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Good news! I shall follow developments with great interest.

Not sure about the ickstream name though. Maybe it sounds better to
German ears?!


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jo-wie
2013-04-07 08:44:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter314
Not sure about the ickstream name though. Maybe it sounds better to
German ears?!
I would say it sounds like the idiom for I stream when you live in
Berlin. :D


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ModelCitizen
2013-04-07 11:06:28 UTC
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Post by Peter314
Good news! I shall follow developments with great interest.
Not sure about the ickstream name though. Maybe it sounds better to
German ears?!
It is great news. However, it is a real shame the name was not tried out
on a native English speaker before being decided upon.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/icky


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bpa
2013-04-07 11:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by ModelCitizen
It is great news. However, it is a real shame the name was not tried out
on a native English speaker before being decided upon.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/icky
Names are very hard to get right and be across many countries and I
don't want to be negative but incorrect name can kill a service. I also
think the name may be a poor choice for UK & Ireland as the word "icky"
is quite common and so when I heard the site first - it did not appeal
to me to even read the post except that pippin was the author.

There is also another possible bad connotation probably only for UK
listeners who have heard about infamous David Icke as it sounds like his
web site.


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garym
2013-04-07 13:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by bpa
Names are very hard to get right and be across many countries and I
don't want to be negative but incorrect name can kill a service. I also
think the name may be a poor choice for UK & Ireland as the word "icky"
is quite common and so when I heard the site first - it did not appeal
to me to even read the post except that pippin was the author.
There is also another possible bad connotation probably only for UK
listeners who have heard about infamous David Icke as it sounds like his
web site.
And in the US, "icky" is a common phrase for something "gross" or
unpleasant. So the name bothers me a bit as well. But I don't really
care what it is called if it preserves my SB ecosystem and allows me to
add to it in the future.


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SamS
2013-04-07 13:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by garym
And in the US, "icky" is a common phrase for something "gross" or
unpleasant. So the name bothers me a bit as well. But I don't really
care what it is called if it preserves my SB ecosystem and allows me to
add to it in the future.
Yep.

But maybe now is the best time to consider a name change.... before
development and knowledge spreads further!


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erland
2013-04-07 13:28:27 UTC
Permalink
Let's not turn this thread into a name complaints thread.
Theoretically the product name can still be changed, but no promises, an
important factor of the name is also that people remembers it and
discuss it.
From now on the chance of being invited as beta tester will decrease for
people who complains on the name. People who have already posted their
complains will be forgiven for their previous actions. :-)


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bakker_be
2013-04-07 13:56:15 UTC
Permalink
let's not turn this thread into a name complaints thread.
Theoretically the product name can still be changed, but no promises, an
important factor of the name is also that people remembers it and
discuss it.
From now on the chance of being invited as beta tester will decrease for
people who complains on the name. People who have already posted their
complains will be forgiven for their previous actions. :-)
lol ...


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Ikabob
2013-04-07 14:30:02 UTC
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As long as it preserves the present ecosystem with all my Squeezies, I
will be forever grateful and appreciative. I,too, would be willing to
help in any way! Thank you.


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lrossouw
2013-04-07 15:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Happy to support this development, though I'm not really sure how this
sits with current LMS etc. Is this mainly the mysb.com side being
replaced or is this something more than that?


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erland
2013-04-07 16:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by lrossouw
Happy to support this development, though I'm not really sure how this
sits with current LMS etc. Is this mainly the mysb.com side being
replaced or is this something more than that?
It's a lot more than a mysqueezebox.com replacement, the current plan is
to support LMS as a content service for local music because it's really
great for that but we will very likely also support other type of
content services for local music for people who don't want a computer
powered on all the time. We also have some ideas how LMS could be used
to provide third party add-ons but this area is still under
investigation so we will know more a bit later.

I don't see any colliding interests between LMS, the community
Squeezebox hardware project and ickStream, they can potentially all work
together and provide the system we have always wanted.


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SamS
2013-04-07 16:30:23 UTC
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From now on the chance of being invited as beta tester will decrease for
people who complains on the name. People who have already posted their
complains will be forgiven for their previous actions. :-)
LOL, fair enough!


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pippin
2013-04-05 21:19:46 UTC
Permalink
"Running on Squeezeboxes" currently means our software client runs in
parallel to the MySqueezebox.com integration so you can use the original
system of ours and seamlessly switch but at least right now we don't
have combined playlists or something.

Gapless works right now, I believe, although I would have to
doublecheck? I believe that's currently just an implementation detail.
But both gapless and synchronization are basic design requirements
although syncing in our system is the one thing that is more challenging
compared to the SB although Somos does get it to work fine with a
similar approach.


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pippin
2013-04-07 03:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by epoch1970
A server-centric architecture advantage lies in end-device lifecycle. I
know iPeng still runs on "old" iOS4 devices. That's a
laudable rarity, but how old is that exactly ? I was stunned when, by
SBS v6.0, the text UI on the almost decade-old ip3k devices was improved
(smoother scrolling). I also remember the addition of alarm capability
There is a discrepancy between hi-fi gear evolution and cpu evolution.
Prices do not halve or performance double at the same rate in each
domain. And this creates planned obsolescence, which leads to
balkanization (?) when users stop following the trend.
Oh, I still believe we do cover a lot of that.
You can still add content without touching the actual devices. You will
not see new software functionality but here the old SBs have been very
limited, too. There is a reason why they have no support for AAC, ALAC
or Spotify built into them and the reason is that their hardware was too
limited for this. All compensation was on the server side and that kind
of content conversion would work for us, too.

Your font example probably won't, that's true, but I'm pretty sure
that's more or less the ONLY example you will find where there really
was a firmware upgrade adding real device functionality late in the
process and nobody will hinder a device manufacturer using ickStream to
still provide software updates for his devices after 10 years. And yes,
the SBs required SB updates for new functionality, too. Actually I'm
almost sure the old SBs will actually be the FIRST devices no longer
supported because other than the new ones with their open architecture
the community will not be able to provide updates for them. Next time
Rhapsody changes their encryption it will stop working on the old
devices, I'm sure....


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ajkidle
2013-04-07 11:41:37 UTC
Permalink
Next time Rhapsody changes their encryption it will stop working on the
old devices, I'm sure....
Naive of me to think otherwise, but you've made me nervous again...

Does the ickStream development possibly provide a solution for such an
event, or is your focus on the Radio/Touch architecture?


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pippin
2013-04-07 12:30:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by jo-wie
I would say it sounds like the idiom for I stream when you live in
Berlin. :D
That was the idea. Plus maybe an "extreme" sound-alike.
Post by jo-wie
It is great news. However, it is a real shame the name was not tried out
on a native English speaker before being decided upon.
Well, it was obviously tried out on at least one. How bad is it?
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Julf
2013-04-07 12:32:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by jo-wie
Well, it was obviously tried out on at least one. How bad is it?
Well, you *could* have called it "ickypoo"... :)


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Mnyb
2013-04-07 12:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Actually quite weird name , does not work that well :) and i'm getting
used to all share/free ware that goes with linux , that can be named
just about anything and usually have nothing to do with it's function.

Well Sony got away with "walkman"


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pippin
2013-04-07 12:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Corelli45
Will the new software enable similar functionality to the current
Ipeng+Squeezebox Touch set up? And will we be able to continue to use
current add ons such as Triode's Spotify and Enhanced Digital Output
plug ins?
With current add-ons we will have to see. There might be a simple but
inconvenient (from a UI perspective) way to just use what is currently
there (the current Squeezebox UI is not at all content aware so can't
support some of the cooler features we are doing).
Generally, the idea is that everybody can easily create own content
providers for this and I'm pretty sure it will be possible to develop a
generalized way to do this from LMS. In this case it would make a lot of
sense to directly go through the ickStream interface instead of creating
a Squeezebox menu first because, well, it would then support the cool
features mentioned above :)
One thing that is different is that long term we envision that 3rd party
support for streaming services could be hosted on a web server so that
you don't have to run something on an own server to make it work. We
don't have a concrete implementation for this today, though.
Post by Corelli45
Naive of me to think otherwise, but you've made me nervous again...
Does the ickStream development possibly provide a solution for such an
event, or is your focus on the Radio/Touch architecture?
Currently the focus is on the Radio/Touch architecture for the reasons
mentioned above. There has been an idea on how older players could be
supported, too, but we haven't done work on this, yet, and I'm almost
sure the very first incarnation will not support it, we might have to
rely on 3rd party support here and we have to make a particular change
(although we already know we will need that one anyhow).

In a more general sense: there is no way to ever be safe against things
like that with any system as long as your service provider uses DRM and
keeps his hands on it. This explicitly includes Spotify, too, who are,
strictly speaking, prohibiting all of this. The 3rd party plugin
probably goes as far as you can bend their rules.
So the general rule is: prefer services who are more open and use
standard streaming formats like AAC and mp3 so that you only need access
to their content lookup because that's what they will always provide.


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Mnyb
2013-04-07 12:54:09 UTC
Permalink
"icky the poo" sounds cute to me ;)
And Apple with "iPad"
Please do not design a mascot , I just ordered pizza


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Corelli45
2013-04-07 09:46:44 UTC
Permalink
Will the new software enable similar functionality to the current
Ipeng+Squeezebox Touch set up? And will we be able to continue to use
current add ons such as Triode's Spotify and Enhanced Digital Output
plug ins?
Steve


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erland
2013-04-07 12:45:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Corelli45
Will the new software enable similar functionality to the current
Ipeng+Squeezebox Touch set up?
Yes
Post by Corelli45
And will we be able to continue to use current add ons such as Triode's
Spotify and Enhanced Digital Output plug ins?
It's too early to say at the moment, we have mainly experimented a bit
with Squeezebox hardware to ensure it works with our platform but the
implementation for Squeezebox is still an early prototype. However, it
will definitely be possible for a third party developer to provide an
integration where these add-ons can be used.


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Corelli45
2013-04-07 16:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Will work continue on fixing bugs and stabilising LMS?


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erland
2013-04-07 17:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Corelli45
Will work continue on fixing bugs and stabilising LMS?
Maintaining LMS is not on our priority list at the moment, we will just
integrate with it.

This could of course change in the future if LMS stops working and
nobody is willing to maintain it, but LMS is not critical for our system
to work since we have the option to integrate with other content servers
for local music.


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pippin
2013-04-07 17:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Corelli45
Will work continue on fixing bugs and stabilising LMS?
And just to be clear: none of us have really been developing LMS in the
past. OK, Erland has provided a number of patches and extensions but the
real development and maintenance has been with others.


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Corelli45
2013-04-07 18:10:08 UTC
Permalink
So if LMS failed then the Squeezebox device can still be maintained on
your system and local music can be carried in other ways. Sounds great.
I look forward seeing the progress you have made. Good luck and thanks
again for the investment you've all made.

Steve


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pippin
2013-04-07 21:41:50 UTC
Permalink
You can do that with ickStream, if you like. But what is your "cloud at
home"? Most people don't want to have a server running 24/7 and I, for
myself, enjoy having access to music I don't yet know. This will not go
away.


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mule
2013-04-07 22:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by pippin
You can do that with ickStream, if you like. But what is your "cloud at
home"? Most people don't want to have a server running 24/7 and I, for
myself, enjoy having access to music I don't yet know. This will not go
away, people will use online services for a lot of their music
listening, probably most of it.
Maybe i really don't get it, but your business model depends on your
cloud services, right? Why should you then give one the oppertunity to
build up a totally independent plattform from your cloud services? This
makes no sense, because it would decrease your income and therefore
endanger the operation of your cloud services. So what does "you can do
that with ickStream" really mean: That some services depend (as with my
squeezebox.com) to your cloud services, even if the main core is
installed on ones private cloud? Then we're once again at the beginning
of the story: mysqueezebox.com but with another name.

Regarding "private cloud & server 24/7"":
When talking about a "private cloud" using the word "server" is already
a mistake, because common people think of servers that they are loud as
jets, costs hundreds of dollars per year for power consumption, are big
as skyscrapers, are worse for healthy reasons and so on... But we know
that this is totally wrong nowadays: You can build up small systems with
low power consumption which has so much horsepower that they can do much
more than just handle your music library and some music services. The
only thing that is missing is that someone builds up a a ready to go
hard- and software platform which can be handled by consumers. I never
understood why logitech tried to implement the LMS into the touch. Why
not build up some small ready to go nano server (sorry: private cloud
system)?


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pippin
2013-04-07 23:12:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by mule
Maybe i really don't get it, but your business model depends on your
cloud services, right?
I can't really comment on the business model but this is not essentially
a paid-for cloud service, if that was your impression.
Post by mule
Why should you then give one the oppertunity to build up a totally
independent plattform from your cloud services?
Because there will always be things we can't do, either for licensing
reasons or because you simply can't do everything alone.
A working ecosystem needs diversity and variety, everything else will
just fail. If we want this to succeed, we will need that, too.
Even Apple gave up on closing down the iPhone (remember: that was their
original plan) after only a few months.
Post by mule
So what does "you can do that with ickStream" really mean: That some
services depend (as with my squeezebox.com) on your cloud services, even
if the main core is installed on ones private cloud?
Again: I still don't understand what "your private cloud" is. A private
cloud to me is an oxymoron.
You will be able to stream to an ickStream device without contact to our
service and you will be able to stream whatever you want for that if you
are using our API which will be open at least for non-commercial use and
available for commercial use.
However, I'm pretty convinced people will _want_ to use our backend
where it's appropriate because there are a lot of use cases for which it
makes a lot of sense and adds value.
Post by mule
The only thing that is missing is that someone builds up a a ready to go
hard- and software platform which can be handled by consumers.
Plenty of those around. But it's a fact of life that a lot of people
build even complex setups to save the 3W of power their Squeezebox uses
when leaving home for a few hours and don't want to run something like
that.
Also, it's more than just knowing how to operate your server, you also
have to organize your music, probably in several libraries and on
several devices.
No. The majority of users will want to stream from their laptop when
using local music, I'm pretty sure about that.
Which doesn't mean that supporting servers/NAS isn't important, too.


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garym
2013-04-07 21:47:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by pippin
You can do that with ickStream, if you like. But what is your "cloud at
home"? Most people don't want to have a server running 24/7 and I, for
myself, enjoy having access to music I don't yet know. This will not go
away, people will use online services for a lot of their music
listening, probably most of it.
I agree. I certainly like using music services (spotify, etc.) and
internet radio. But I also want to be able to access my own music
library (from my home server) even if I have no internet service at a
particular point in time. That is the UE Radio approach that I disliked
the most was the fact that one needed internet access to even access
one's own files on one's own server. But I assume the ickStream
approach wouldn't mandate an internet connection to support one's own
files.


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Mnyb
2013-04-08 05:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Are we comparing what ?

Ip3k player directly to mysb.com -whitout any LMS server to intermediate
- ?

SqueezePlay player directly to mysb.com no server ?

Players that can conect to a local server ( LMS for example ) that in
turn uses a cloud service(s).


Without understanding all tech I think Erland describes my boom using
mysb.com exclusively .


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erland
2013-04-08 05:56:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mnyb
Without understanding all tech I think Erland describes my boom using
mysb.com exclusively .
Correct, that was the comparison I was trying to make.

It's not a valid comparison if you look among people in this community
who mostly is happy to have LMS installed on a computer/NAS, but there
are a lot of Squeezebox users who purely uses online music and
mysqueezebox.com, not sure if they are the majority but I suspect they
are a significant part. From your own perspective this won't really be
relevant, but for the hosting costs, resource usage and reliability of a
cloud server it is since they will be the ones mostly using the cloud
server.

However, as said in my previous post, I don't really want to get into a
debate regarding number of messages on the network, I was just trying to
explain that devices with more logic in the device typically requires
less resources on the server side.


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erland
2013-04-08 05:44:36 UTC
Permalink
I don't know where you got those numbers or even that impression. LMS
will talk to mysb.com to get information (title, album, artwork) about
the next track to be played and (depending on the music service) report
successful playback after some time. But while listening (not
navigating), there's not much more relevant traffic than this.
There is some other information exchange which is mostly irrelevant to
the player's operation, like prefs synchroniation (optional). But you
won't miss it when mysb.com was to go away.
Just to be clear, what I was referring to here was people who only use
mysqueezebox.com and don't have a LMS installed on a computer their
local network. If there is a LMS on the local network the internet
traffic is obviously limited.

However, as I said, I haven't verified the actual numbers, I was just
trying to say that slim devices typically requires more network traffic
than devices with more logic on the device itself. Maybe the network
traffic and resource usage on mysqueezebox.com is a lot less than I
suspected it is.

But let's not get into a debate regarding this, I was just trying to
explain that a cloud server for content aggregation isn't necessary a
bad thing, at least if the protocols and architecture is designed for
it.
What? You think using perl was a mistake? :-P
No, not at the time it was chosen.
It'll be interesting to see what you're going to win over mysb.com for
the SB user. Unless you modify the player's firmware to move more of the
player control to the device instead of the server there's not much room
for improvement imho. It's a limitation of this device which we should
have fixed long ago.
I completely agree, more logic have to be moved to the device to improve
the situation and this is relatively easy on Touch/Radio where we could
do it through third party applets while we would probably have to use
LMS or similar server software as gateway/proxy for older Squeezebox
hardware. However, previous Squeezebox hardware is not our main
priority, it's just something we want to work because we own
Squeezeboxes ourselves and if possible we would like to give existing
Squeezebox users an option for online music also in the future if
Logitech would eventually shutdown mysqueezebox.com.


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erland
2013-04-08 03:12:16 UTC
Permalink
However, maybe I'm a bit of a Luddite as I really don't like all this
'cloudy' thing
I believe people around here is afraid of the cloud because they have
seen mysqueezebox.com and know what happens when it goes down.

There are two scenarios:
1. You want to listen to local music
2. You want to listen to online streaming services

People understand that scenario 2 isn't possible without a reliable
internet connection but they want to be able to accomplish scenario 1
without a reliable internet connection. If they loose the internet
completely, most will accept that you don't get full functionality in
scenario 1, but it's important that you at least are able to listen to
your local music. As an example, if they can't share the local music
they are listening to instantly on Facebook while the internet is down
they will generally accept it.

Logitech Squeezebox solved scenario 1 pretty nicely through LMS and so
does Sonos (who only relies on a network mounted drive with local
music).
With UE Smart Radio Logitech showed how you can make a system extremely
dependent on internet both for scenario 1 and 2. It's obviously a bad
idea to do this, but they had to do something quick and they didn't have
the time to do the necessary adjustments to their architecture, so the
UE Smart Radio architecture is what we got.

Now, people who have sniffed the network or looked in the server log
files from LMS with network debugging enabled knows how much traffic
there is continuously between the player and server when using the
system. What Logitech did with mysqueezebox.com is essentially to move
the server part to the cloud which means that all this network traffic
have to be handled by a central server with the result that you are
extremely dependent that the central server must be available for
scenario 2, so you aren't just dependent on an internet connection you
are also extremely dependent also on the cloud server itself. This is
what you get with a slim device when you move the server part to the
cloud, basically a system which is extremely dependent on a cloud server
being up.

As long as you can keep the cloud server up, it's not a problem, but
let's just say that it's a lot easier to operate a cloud server which
responds to 2 messages per minute from each device compared to one that
have to respond to 200 messages per minute from each device. I'm not
sure about the exact numbers here but generally a solution with slim
devices requires a lot more network traffic than a solution with
thick/rich devices.

I'm not going to go into any details how we have solved it but let's
just say that we have learned a bit from Logitech's mistakes and we
don't plan to repeat them, the market looks different today than it did
10 years ago when the Squeezebox architecture was designed, due to this
our system is not a clone of the current Squeezebox architecture.

Regarding having cloud server at all, it's needed for two reasons:
1.
People wants a modern system which easily can be updated with new
features, as bluegaspode mentions this is very hard to accomplish
through software installed on the local network or by updating the
firmware of the devices. Firmware updates is fairly easy to handle as
long as we are talking about a single hardware vendor (look at Sonos or
Apple) but it's a lot bigger challenge when involving multiple hardware
vendors (look at Android as an example). Having the part of the logic
that changes often in the cloud helps a lot in the multiple hardware
vendor scenario. Making our own hardware would also have been an easy
solution to this problem, but we believe it's very hard for a single
hardware vendor to fulfill all possible usage scenarios so we decided to
go for the multi vendor solution instead and focus on making a software
platform.

2.
People want easy access to the latest online services, this includes
everything from the latest social network services to streaming
services. Here open source is an issue, because if you call a premium
streaming provider (for example Rhapsody) and ask if you can get access
to their API to be used in your open source software they are just going
to hang up. If your software is closed source, the first question they
are going to ask is how many customers you have, if your answer is that
you think you can distribute your closed software to 5000 people who are
willing to install it on a local computer, the next question they are
going to ask is if you have some stats that shows that these 5000 people
actually use your software. Try to answer those questions without some
kind of cloud server, then realize that the minimum volumes you are
going to have to show them to make them even interested to talk to you
have to be significant higher than 5000 users, which also means that you
have to be able reach people who aren't happy to install custom software
on a computer.

Independent if we like it or not, a cloud server solves many of these
problems because it makes it easy to upgrade the software with new
features and it makes it easy to get confirmed stats about number of
users using the system which is needed in discussions with some
streaming service providers. It's also important to notice that we have
people in the team who have extensive experience of negotiations with
streaming service providers, so these are not just guesses, it's pure
facts based on previous experience.

If we thought it would be possible to fulfill the user experience,
satisfy hardware vendors and get necessary agreements with streaming
providers with a solution purely based on server software installed on a
computer, we would have done it that way, but this isn't how the market
works.


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mherger
2013-04-08 04:49:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by erland
Now, people who have sniffed the network or looked in the server log
files from LMS with network debugging enabled knows how much traffic
there is continuously between the player and server when using the
system. What Logitech did with mysqueezebox.com is essentially to move
the server part to the cloud which means that all this network traffic
have to be handled by a central server with the result that you are
extremely dependent that the central server must be available for
scenario 2, so you aren't just dependent on an internet connection you
are also extremely dependent on the cloud server itself. This is what
you get with a slim device when you move the server part to the cloud,
basically a system which is extremely dependent on a cloud server being
up.
Now that's a little confusing if not wrong here. Please define "the
server part". As long as you're using (and that's what you're talking
about wrt. to looking at logs), "the server part" is not moved to
mysb.com. What is there is content aggregation for music services. LMS
is reaching out to mysb.com to eg. get the data to build the menus for
your favorite music service. But all the player control still happens in
LMS. It receives that OPML data and creates SlimBrowse menu for your
devices.

Yes, you are dependant on mysb.com to use most of the music services.
But not because you lose control over your device, but because you lose
access to the music service's API.
Post by erland
As long as you can keep the cloud server up, it's not a problem, but
let's just say that it's a lot easier to operate a cloud server which
responds to 2 messages per minute from each device compared to one that
have to respond to 200 messages per minute from each device. I'm not
sure about the exact numbers here but generally a solution with slim
devices requires a lot more network traffic than a solution with
thick/rich devices.
I don't know where you got those numbers or even that impression. LMS
will talk to mysb.com to get information (title, album, artwork) about
the next track to be played and (depending on the music service) report
successful playback after some time. But while listening (not
navigating), there's not much more relevant traffic than this.

There is some other information exchange which is mostly irrelevant to
the player's operation, like prefs synchroniation (optional). But you
won't miss it when mysb.com was to go away.
Post by erland
I'm not going to go into any details how we have solved it but let's
just say that we have learned a bit from Logitech's mistakes and we
don't plan to repeat them,
What? You think using perl was a mistake? :-P

It'll be interesting to see what you're going to win over mysb.com for
the SB user. Unless you modify the player's firmware to move more of the
player control to the device instead of the server there's not much room
for improvement imho. It's a limitation of this device which we should
have fixed long ago.


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mule
2013-04-08 11:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by erland
I believe people around here is afraid of the cloud because they have
seen mysqueezebox.com and know what happens when it goes down.
1. You want to listen to local music
2. You want to listen to online streaming services
You're right. I'm willing to be dependent on my private cloud (with my
own music) and the different cloud-solutions of the several content
providers (like spotify, fm radio etc.). But I'm NOT willing to be again
dependent of any let's call it "interface cloud provider" between my
private cloud and the several content providers like it is/was with
mysqueezebox.com even when using LMS.


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erland
2013-04-08 15:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by mule
You're right. I'm willing to be dependent on my private cloud (with my
own music) and the different cloud-solutions of the several content
providers (like spotify, fm radio etc.). But I'm NOT willing to be again
dependent of any let's call it "interface cloud provider" between my
private cloud and the several content providers like it is/was with
mysqueezebox.com even when using LMS.
If you are saying that you are happy with a solution like Triode's
Spotify plugin running in LMS, I'm happy to say that a similar solution
will very likely work also with ickStream if a third party developer
develops the necessary add-on to run on the local network. It will of
course only work for streaming services which have an open API, so if we
are talking about Spotify you will be fine, if we are talking about
Rhapsody it's likely not going to work because individual developers
will have a hard time to get access their API.

If you are saying that you don't want to have any code at all between
the device and the content provider, you will need a solution like Sonos
where the device interact directly with Spotify servers, but this means
that you are going to be limited to the services which the provider
prioritize to implement in the firmware and you will very likely be
locked into a single hardware vendor.

I think all alternatives have their advantages and disadvantages, what
we try to accomplish is just a solution which have similar openness to
third party add-ons as the Squeezebox and still ability to support many
different online content services where some only have private API's. If
this isn't what you want, there might be better alternatives than
ickStream available that fits you better.


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Julf
2013-04-08 06:43:30 UTC
Permalink
It's a funny discussion with different points of views on both sides of
the Atlantic, btw.
Whenever I talk to people in Europe they don't believe in cloud services
and that people will always prefer their own stuff.
That could be because if you are in the US, you are already subject to
US laws (including your butt being owned by the media industry, law
enforcement and intelligence services), and it makes little difference
if your stuff is in the cloud or at home. But if you live in Europe, you
give away your stuff to another legislation, beyond your control, and
with much weaker privacy and consumer laws if you put it "in the
cloud".

Anyone remember the crazy thing when the PGP encryption source code was
classified as controlled munitions in the US? The MIT bookstore could
print the code on a T-shirt, but taking that T-shirt abroad would have
been "exporting controlled munitions". And of course the MIT bookstore
couldn't put a picture of the T-shirt in their online catalogue - anyone
loading that page would have exported controlled munitions...


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pippin
2013-04-08 07:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by mherger
Now that's a little confusing if not wrong here. Please define "the
server part". As long as you're using LMS (and that's what you're
talking about wrt. to looking at logs), "the server part" is not moved
to mysb.com.
As Erland already pointed out: this was about using MySB only or (even
worse) UESR

And then, in addition to all of the stuff you talked about plus
navigation there's also SlimProto. The Squeezebox needs actually _three_
independent, permanent, streaming online connections to work to be able
to stream from a remote service using MySB (SlimProto, cometd and the
actual stream), one of which is also very sensitive to even short
interruptions (the SlimProto one).
Post by mherger
What? You think using perl was a mistake? :-P
Plus, using a stateful deign and permanent connections doesn't really
help with scalability which in turn doesn't really help with
reliability.

Actually I believe going to a stateless design and use of JSON/RPC only
for MySB would probably solve your outage issues. However, it's of
course a complete change of the system architecture.
Post by mherger
Unless you modify the player's firmware to move more of the player
control to the device instead of the server there's not much room for
improvement imho.
What we do is not a new backend for Squeezeboxes, it's a different
architecture. And as I pointed out before: we don't plan to move any
kind of control into any kind of server.
Post by mherger
It's a limitation of this device which we should have fixed long ago.
Instead, you've kept making it even worse with the onebrowser activity,
completely doing away with the rest of the model attributes in the
control and leaving the whole Client strictly in the "view" domain of
MVC....
Post by mherger
That could be because if you are in the US, you are already subject to
US laws (including your butt being owned by the media industry, law
enforcement and intelligence services), and it makes little difference
if your stuff is in the cloud or at home. But if you live in Europe, you
give away your stuff to another legislation, beyond your control, and
with much weaker privacy and consumer laws if you put it "in the
cloud".
I'd have said it's because Europeans are generally more conservative and
if you speak about Germany you are just as much caught up in
legislation, just different one. One that gives Spotify, iTunes and
YouTube a different legal status (Spotify and iTunes Match are lacking a
contract with Germany's semi-public rights management association GEMA,
they are just tolerated because they are still "negotiating" - for
several years now. Google is in an open war with GEMA which means 75% of
the top YouTube videos are inaccessible from Germany)
Post by mherger
Anyone remember the crazy thing when the PGP encryption source code was
classified as controlled munitions in the US?
Nothing to remember, this is still the case. I have to make a statement
about use of strong encryption in iPeng with every build I sent to
Apple.
Post by mherger
The MIT bookstore could print the code on a T-shirt, but taking that
T-shirt abroad would have been "exporting controlled munitions".
No, because the law originally had a flaw that actually allowed the code
to be exported in printed form (only program code in electronic form was
controlled, back then). PGP was then brought abroad in exactly that way
and since then the strongly encrypted, backdoor-free PGP version has
only been available outside the US. Would be interesting to know how
this is being handled with GPG today.

And of course the MIT bookstore couldn't put a picture of the T-shirt
in their online catalogue - anyone loading that page would have exported
controlled munitions...


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mherger
2013-04-08 07:49:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by pippin
As Erland already pointed out: this was about using MySB only or (even
worse) UESR
As I said: that paragraph was confusing. He mentioned log files - which
nobody sees unless he's running LMS. Therefore the confusion about what
he was talking about.


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Julf
2013-04-08 08:14:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by pippin
if you speak about Germany you are just as much caught up in
legislation, just different one.
Sure. But at least legislation that the Germans are more familiar with.
Post by pippin
No, because the law originally had a flaw that actually allowed the code
to be exported in printed form (only program code in electronic form was
controlled, back then).
To pick nits - the code, in any other form than printed in a book, was
controlled. So the T-shirt was controlled, and so was the picture of it
- unless published in a book. It was the first amendment special
protection of the printed form that allowed the export trick.
Post by pippin
Would be interesting to know how this is being handled with GPG today.
"PGP encryption no longer meets the definition of a non-exportable
weapon, and can be exported internationally except to seven specific
countries and a list of named groups and individuals"


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bluegaspode
2013-04-07 22:36:11 UTC
Permalink
However, maybe I'm a bit of a Luddite as I really don't like all this
'cloudy' thing ...
I think it won't be possible to do without a 'cloud' part.
pippin, erland & co want to build a software stack, that is able to run
on different hardware from different vendors. Now when one Music Service
changes it's API (or adds a cool new feature) if you don't do it with a
'cloud' approach, you'd have to distribute the update to anyone using
your software stack.

This is actually not possible - you see it with Android how difficult it
is there to get the latest version of the software out to all devices.

So the only solution for this is to wrap all music services in your own
cloud offer, to accomodate for all changes that might be happening on
the music service side. It's also by the way the only way to get
reasonable negotiation powers with music service providers: you need to
have current stats about your userbase (even if the userbase might
disagree here :) )

But yes: if you don't make enough money with it, you close down the
service - and users might be left with players that only play local
music if noone else steps in. But: as far as I understood the platform
is so open, that someone could still be writing an "ownCloud" server.
This is the same as with LMS today: if MySB.com closed down, someone
could upgrade LMS with a plugin that directly communicates with a music
services (like Triodes Spotify plugin).
I think this is the closest thing to 'acceptable' one can ever get.
Sonos users have bigger problems, when Sonos shuts down, compared to
Squeezebox owners in this regard.

Also - if it works out as expected you have a certain 'multiple' vendor
lock-in. They cannot let the service down without getting into big
trouble themselves. Might be also the biggest risk for them to start
being dependend on the ickstream platform at all, but this is a
completely different topic.


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castalla
2013-04-07 22:09:34 UTC
Permalink
I'm reluctant to pass comment on any of this, since we have no real idea
what ickStream actually is or does. However, maybe I'm a bit of a
Luddite as I really don't like all this 'cloudy' thing ... so I guess
I'll have to wait with baited breath to see just what this development
offers.


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pippin
2013-04-07 21:52:05 UTC
Permalink
It's a funny discussion with different points of views on both sides of
the Atlantic, btw.
Whenever I talk to people in Europe they don't believe in cloud services
and that people will always prefer their own stuff. Some hardware makers
here even still want to include CD drives and FM receivers, even for new
projects.

When I talk to people from the US it always sounds like owning music is
already a thing of the past, nobody does that und it's completely
irrelevant for anything new, you only need to support online streaming,
nothing else.

I believe in none of these scenarios. Owning and collecting music is
here to stay, the limitations of online streaming are far too severe.
I'm a Spotify user for 4 years or so now and around 1/3rd of my
collected catalog is no longer available. And that's in addition to the
50% of my physical collection they never had.

But I also don't believe that the model of copying your music onto your
iPod and carrying it around all the time will persist, plus for
occasional listening, music discovery and actual distribution I do
believe it will move completely online. It's just that you will then
want to keep what you really care about.

So we need to support both and bridge the two worlds to make all of this
accessible and bring you back to a point, where you just focus on
listening to music, whoever it comes from.
That's our idea behind ickStream.


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garym
2013-04-07 21:57:11 UTC
Permalink
It's a funny discussion with different points of views on both sides of
the Atlantic, btw.
Whenever I talk to people in Europe they don't believe in cloud services
and that people will always prefer their own stuff. Some hardware makers
here even still want to include CD drives and FM receivers, even for new
projects.
When I talk to people from the US it always sounds like owning music is
already a thing of the past, nobody does that und it's completely
irrelevant for anything new, you only need to support online streaming,
nothing else.
I believe in none of these scenarios. Owning and collecting music is
here to stay, the limitations of online streaming are far too severe.
I'm a Spotify user for 4 years or so now and around 1/3rd of my
collected catalog is no longer available. And that's in addition to the
50% of my physical collection they never had.
But I also don't believe that the model of copying your music onto your
iPod and carrying it around all the time will persist, plus for
occasional listening, music discovery and actual distribution I do
believe it will move completely online. It's just that you will then
want to keep what you really care about.
So we need to support both and bridge the two worlds to make all of this
accessible and bring you back to a point, where you just focus on
listening to music, whoever it comes from.
That's our idea behind ickStream.
Perfect. I agree with all the above!


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Ron Thigpen
2013-04-09 16:21:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by pippin
But I also don't believe that the model of copying your music onto your
iPod and carrying it around all the time will persist [...]
I believe that the local copy on portable devices will still exist, to
an extent. Not entire libraries but a subset that serves as a cache.

Mostly this is useful for times when network connectivity is not
guaranteed and on-device storage is rather cheap.

One of my favorite features of the MOG app for iPhone is the ability to
download local copies of albums.

I use this feature to ensure smooth playback on the road, and so that my
personal listening doesn't impact the wireless network at the office or
cause excessive usage on my mobile data plan.

Supporting on-device caching of content in the Ick APIs might end up as
a key differentiating feature.

pippin
2013-04-08 18:14:08 UTC
Permalink
@mule with these requirements, of all solutions currently available
probably only AirPlay is for you.

Please let's all be aware that Triode's plugin is a tolerated but not
officially endorsed solution and such a solution _will_ never be
endorsed by them. So it's nothing any vendor will ever offer
commercially.


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JackOfAll
2013-04-08 19:07:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by pippin
Please let's all be aware that Triode's plugin is a tolerated but not
officially endorsed solution and such a solution _will_ never be
endorsed by them.
What I can't tolerate is people who prattle on about "open" API's while
hiding behind NDA's.


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erland
2013-04-08 21:05:23 UTC
Permalink
I just wants to clarify a few things before people gets worried, I've
said it previously, but since I got some comments via private mail I was
obviously not clear enough so I feel it's important to clarify it
again.

1.
We love LMS and we would love LMS to survive on longer terms and
independent if it's maintained by Logitech or if a community effort is
launched to maintain LMS we will do what we can to encourage it. As
previously mentioned would probably not take the lead in managing LMS,
but we would like to encourage it. LMS is an excellent content server
for local music and it's an excellent solution for for users with
existing Squeezeboxes who like to continue using them for local music
and the third party plugins that exists for online services. If LMS
wouldn't be maintained in the future it would be bad both for ickStream
and existing Squeezebox users, we would both loose something that works
really good.

2.
We are really excited about the community Squeezebox hardware project
and also the related software developed in that project, I've tried it
myself and it looks really promising and I want to really thank
JackOfAll, Triode, JohnSwensson and others who have contributed to it.
We look at this as a way for existing users to continue using LMS and
Squeezeboxes if they like that and we just want to offer an option to
use ickStream for people who like that. I want to be clear that it's NOT
two competing platforms, it's two platforms which can complement each
other and result in an excellent future for people who like to continue
using open music streaming solutions instead of locked in solutions like
Sonos.

3.
If LMS can provide support for some online services through plugins,
that's a really great thing as if we collaborate between the projects we
can even get these add-ons to support both systems for people who like a
solution for online music which doesn't depend on an intermediate cloud
server.

It's unlucky that some people interpreted the messages during the last
day as conflicting interests because there really isn't, going back in
the thread I can see how some of the messages I and pippin posted can be
interpreted that way, I sincerely apologize for both of us.

Most of it is probably my fault because I posted the post about cloud
servers for slim vs fat/rich devices and I would sincerely like to
apologize to mherger or anybody else for my unlucky and unclear phrasing
which caused this discussion to start. What I was trying to describe is
just that we shouldn't be worried about having a cloud server for online
services, I'm 100% sure it can be made reliable when it's designed from
the ground up with a stateless design and reduced network traffic in
mind.

The best possible situation in my mind would be if we get a successful
community Squeezebox solution which ensures long term survival of LMS
and an ickStream solution which can solve the needs for people who need
access to online services and other features offered by the ickStream
system. If we can collaborate, which I really hope, we can create
something really great together.


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castalla
2013-04-08 21:24:11 UTC
Permalink
As a mere end-user, I'm left with a strange feeling of smoke and
mirrors.

You've pre-announced, kickstarting a thread which still really doesn't
tell us anything other than mystical references to ickStart will do this
or that without anything specific, etc. I still have no idea what it's
all actually about, what it may cost, etc.

Even if an end-user doesn't commit to the CCOS, at least the threads
give a reasonable account of what it's all about.

And, I may as well torpedo my chances of becoming a 'chosen' beta tester
by adding that the name is awful! Sorry.


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garym
2013-04-08 21:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by castalla
As a mere end-user, I'm left with a strange feeling of smoke and
mirrors.
You've pre-announced, kickstarting a thread which still really doesn't
tell us anything other than mystical references to ickStart will do this
or that without anything specific, etc. I still have no idea what it's
all actually about, what it may cost, etc.
Even if an end-user doesn't commit to the CCOS, at least the threads
give a reasonable account of what it's all about.
And, I may as well torpedo my chances of becoming a 'chosen' beta tester
by adding that the name is awful! Sorry.
I have a lot of trust in Erland and Pippin. So no worry of smoke and
mirrors. I think this is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't"
scenario. Folks are worried about the future of their Squeezebox
players, use of mysb.com, etc. and some are moving on to other platforms
(e.g., Sonos). ickStream is not ready for release yet, but the
principals want to at least get the word out that something very
interesting and useful for SB users is around the corner. But of course
they can't provide too many details yet for various reasons.

My take is, this all sounds great. The Swenson et al. designed hardware
sounds great. I'm pleased that high quality, known folks are working on
things that will extend and improve my digital listening world. I very
much look forward to seeing the outcomes of all this. And I will
certainly put my money on the table when given the opportunity to
participate as a consumer of such products/services.


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castalla
2013-04-08 22:11:27 UTC
Permalink
I'm still not sure - how can I be? There's some development going on,
some will be 'chosen' as beta testers ... that's about it. Maybe it
would have been better to delay pre-announcement until something more
definitive was available for the community to become involved.


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pippin
2013-04-08 22:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by castalla
I'm still not sure - how can I be? There's some development going on,
some will be 'chosen' as beta testers ... that's about it.
Well, no. We were indeed giving out quite a bit of detail about how the
architecture works.
Regarding beta testers we have a very simple problem: the state we are
in now, we can't yet openly disclose a lot of the APIs and partners and
we are actually right now very limited WRT to the number of users we can
support during the beta. This is more an organizational than a technical
limitation but that doesn't change the fact.

If you look at how others do beta programs you will find it's exactly
the same. Start with Logitech/Slimdevices and go on to the likes of
facebook et al, betas are usually closed for good reasons.


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castalla
2013-04-08 22:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by pippin
Well, no. We were indeed giving out quite a bit of detail about how the
architecture works.
Regarding beta testers we have a very simple problem: the state we are
in now, we can't yet openly disclose a lot of the APIs and partners and
we are actually right now very limited WRT to the number of users we can
support during the beta. This is more an organizational than a technical
limitation but that doesn't change the fact.
If you look at how others do beta programs you will find it's exactly
the same. Start with Logitech/Slimdevices and go on to the likes of
facebook et al, betas are usually closed for good reasons.
Thanks for the info.


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P Nelson
2013-04-09 14:32:43 UTC
Permalink
I am still trying to understand your product.

Is the goal to supply hardware manufacturers (ie Olive) a solution for
Internet sourced music? Free them from designing the software back end
and let them focus on the hardware and perhaps the 'face' of the
software they will see. Companies want to be the focus so they will
want to show the 'brand' to the customer.

Or are end users your targeted audience as they can select a source that
is not hardware supplier dependent? Thus I can pick from Sonos, olive,
SB, etc and they can all work together?

As others said before, consider changing the name for targeting English
speakers as Ick is a turn off.

Paul


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erland
2013-04-09 16:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by P Nelson
Is the goal to supply hardware manufacturers (ie Olive) a solution for
Internet sourced music? Free them from designing the software back end
and let them focus on the hardware and perhaps the 'face' of the
software they will see. Companies want to be the focus so they will
want to show the 'brand' to the customer.
Or are end users your targeted audience as they can select a source that
is not hardware supplier dependent? Thus I can pick from Sonos, olive,
SB, etc and they can all work together?
We have said a bit about it earlier in the thread but except for what
has already been said I don't want to comment more on the business model
at this stage.


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maggior
2013-04-09 16:19:43 UTC
Permalink
I registered my email address on the ickstream website but never got the
email to confirm. I entered it twice, so I'm sure I put the correct
email address in. Have you been having trouble with that?

Thanks.


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erland
2013-04-08 22:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by castalla
As a mere end-user, I'm left with a strange feeling of smoke and
mirrors.
You've pre-announced, kickstarting a thread which still really doesn't
tell us anything other than mystical references to ickStart will do this
or that without anything specific, etc. I still have no idea what it's
all actually about, what it may cost, etc.
Originally we didn't plan to do a pre-announcement, we planned to
announce it when it was ready for the public, but lately we started to
feel that we at least have the responsibility to let the community know
that we are working on something when we saw indications that people
started to abandon their Squeezebox hardware for other platforms.

It's not that Squeezebox users is our number one target, it's just that
we feel it would make people disappointed if they first sell their
Squeezeboxes and switch to a different hardware platform and then a few
months later see that some people from the Squeezebox community secretly
have been working on a new platform which would have made it possible
for them to use their previous Squeezebox hardware.

So at the moment, what you get is the information posted in this thread
and based on that and the people involved you will have to make a
judgement if you believe it's worth to wait for or not.


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castalla
2013-04-08 22:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by erland
Originally we didn't plan to do a pre-announcement, we planned to
announce it when it was ready for the public, but lately we started to
feel that we at least have the responsibility to let the community know
that we are working on something when we saw indications that people
started to abandon their Squeezebox hardware for other platforms.
It's not that Squeezebox users is our number one target, it's just that
we feel it would make people disappointed if they first sell their
Squeezeboxes and switch to a different hardware platform and then a few
months later see that some people from the Squeezebox community secretly
have been working on a new platform which would have made it possible
for them to use their previous Squeezebox hardware.
So at the moment, what you get is the information posted in this thread
and based on that and the people involved you will have to make a
judgement if you believe it's worth to wait for or not.
Fair enough! I've never had any intention of jumping ship by the way!


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pippin
2013-04-08 20:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Well, we said it WILL be open, not that it already IS open.
We are in an early beta stage in which we have not yet gone public so we
can't open up the API right now.
The license for the use of our software is not yet finalized so we keep
it closed for now and we also have no alternative to the NDA because we
might disclose information where we, ourselves, are bound by NDA with
third parties as well.

Good luck with getting support from service partners for your "open
system" with that attitude.


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Mnyb
2013-04-06 15:33:03 UTC
Permalink
Will this include any custom player fw or is it "only" a server+cloud
service with apps thing .

Will the compatibility to all kinds of devices happen in the server
software :) and can you have some kind of synergy with a collection of
devices from anyone , this would be almost to good to be true ?

I can imagine that you figured how to serve squeezeboxes as some of the
devs involved have mastered the art of making a player for the LMS
server , and it's not far fetched to assume that if you understand the
player you understand the server protocol .


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dsdreamer
2013-04-06 16:19:39 UTC
Permalink
I am very happy to see this initiative, and wish you great success with
it. It makes a great deal of sense to go for device independence, but I
hope you will have some differentiated hardware in your ecosystem, since
the digital streaming music business is quite crowded by now. I am sure
you have ideas on how to differentiate yourself from what's already out
there.

I did try the obvious to see if I could get a peak at what you're up to,
but to no avail.

git clone https://code.google.com/p/ickstream/
Cloning into 'ickstream'...
warning: You appear to have cloned an empty repository.

No surprises there, but it was worth a try. Hopefully, there will be a
degree of open community development once the first public release
happens...?


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epoch1970
2013-04-06 17:39:11 UTC
Permalink
Geschäftsführer: Jörg Schwieder
I'm confident this project will go in the right direction.
Congratulations, and thanks.


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erland
2013-04-06 18:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by dsdreamer
I did try the obvious to see if I could get a peak at what you're up to,
but to no avail.
git clone https://code.google.com/p/ickstream/
Cloning into 'ickstream'...
warning: You appear to have cloned an empty repository.
No surprises there, but it was worth a try. Hopefully, there will be a
degree of open community development once the first public release
happens...?
As mentioned in the initial post, we really want to keep the community
feeling from this community, a big part of that is to allow third party
developers to easily enhance and integrate with the platform and also to
allow community members to participate in beta testing and influence
future functionality. This is also how it currently works for people
invited to our beta program.

Unfortunately we can't be more open to the general public at the moment,
mainly because we want to avoid a situation where some competitor with a
lot more development resources steal our unique ideas and releases
something before us. It's going to be less of a problem after the first
public release and we should then be able to be more open also to people
outside the beta group and get that nice community feeling we are all
familiar with. :-)


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tamanaco
2013-04-06 18:22:38 UTC
Permalink
Great News! Already signed at ickStream.com. Also glad to hear that
MusicIP or similar functionality either native or via a 3rd party plugin
is being considered. Looking forward to future news and would gladly
provide feedback if admitted as beta tester.


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pippin
2013-04-06 18:59:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mnyb
Will this include any custom player fw or is it "only" a server+cloud
service with apps thing .
Kind of in-between. Currently, for the Squeezeboxes, it's an Applet.
Custom firmware is difficult, lots of proprietary stuff in there that's
actually needed so adding to the standard firmware is easier as long as
that one still works.
Post by Mnyb
Will the compatibility to all kinds of devices happen in the server
software :)
No, it's in the API/on the client side. It might be possible to simulate
that, similar to LMS exposing the Squeezeboxes as UPnP devices but me
thinks at least syncing will be difficult with such a scenario (but who
knows... if the latency is known).
Post by Mnyb
and can you have some kind of synergy with a collection of devices from
anyone , this would be almost to good to be true ?
Well, not anyone. We can't make dumb devices more intelligent. But our
system is simple enough to fit into a lot of devices.
Post by Mnyb
I can imagine that you figured how to serve squeezeboxes as some of the
devs involved have mastered the art of making a player for the LMS
server , and it's not far fetched to assume that if you understand the
player you understand the server protocol .
Well, our "server protocol" is very different from what the Squeezeboxes
do. We do NOT have the intelligence in the server. That's the one
fundamental decision we have made, we believe that embedded devices
these days are powerful enough to be able to have the controller in a
controller and to be able to give the player some kind of autonomy.
This gets us around the problem that the server always needs to be
present and reachable, at all times. A problem haunting the Squeezeboxes
when you don't run the server 24/7.

It's pretty much what Logitech _should_ have done for the Smart Radio
but it involves a much bigger change in architecture.


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Mnyb
2013-04-06 19:22:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by pippin
Kind of in-between. Currently, for the Squeezeboxes, it's an Applet.
Custom firmware is difficult, lots of proprietary stuff in there that's
actually needed so adding to the standard firmware is easier as long as
that one still works.
No, it's in the API/on the client side. It might be possible to simulate
that, similar to LMS exposing the Squeezeboxes as UPnP devices but me
thinks at least syncing will be difficult with such a scenario (but who
knows... if the latency is known).
Well, not anyone. We can't make dumb devices more intelligent. But our
system is simple enough to fit into a lot of devices.
Well, our "server protocol" is very different from what the Squeezeboxes
do. We do NOT have the intelligence in the server. That's the one
fundamental decision we have made, we believe that embedded devices
these days are powerful enough to be able to have the controller in a
controller and to be able to give the player some kind of autonomy.
This gets us around the problem that the server always needs to be
present and reachable, at all times. A problem haunting the Squeezeboxes
when you don't run the server 24/7.
It's pretty much what Logitech _should_ have done for the Smart Radio
but it involves a much bigger change in architecture.
It's actualy promising looking forward to see whatever you got , My
curiosity is mostly about what use I would have of my current players .
But that's transient what really matters is the almost 40000 tracks
music collection and associated apps and services :)
If I can load an app on my touches I'm happy . What about a boom ? You
may answer that later when your ready to release something tangible .

Regarding playlist , I do like the smart mix plugin especially the
feature to "never stop the music" much better than mip and sugarcube in
my book .And one of the more apriciated plugins in my use is the simple
bandcamp plugin that mherger put together sometimes it does not have to
be very sofisticated to get a good result , that probably the really
hard part to make things apparently " obvius " when it's not .


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epoch1970
2013-04-06 20:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by pippin
We do NOT have the intelligence in the server. That's the one
fundamental decision we have made, we believe that embedded devices
these days are powerful enough to be able to have the controller in a
controller and to be able to give the player some kind of autonomy.
Sure. But that's not the issue.
A server-centric architecture advantage lies in end-device lifecycle. I
know iPeng still runs on "old" iOS4 devices. That's a laudable rarity,
but how old is that exactly ? I was stunned when, by SBS v6.0, the text
UI on the almost decade-old ip3k devices was improved (smoother
scrolling). I also remember the addition of alarm capability to the SB3
when the Boom was introduced.
There is a discrepancy between hi-fi gear evolution and cpu evolution.
Prices do not halve or performance double at the same rate in each
domain. And this creates planned obsolescence, which leads to
balkanization (?) when users stop following the trend.

I am not exactly a Luddite. I am simply stating that I wouldn't see the
point in buying new hifi gear at the same rate I buy computing gear; and
that a stroke of genius like the SB3 is doesn't come by every year. Nor
even shall.

Anyways. A powerful, well documented (ahem…) API will probably come to
the rescue.


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garym
2013-04-06 20:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Excellent news. I've subscribed to the site and I'm happy to beta test
when the time comes. If the project needs starter funds, happy to
invest via something like kickstarter, etc.


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aubuti
2013-04-06 09:28:47 UTC
Permalink
This is very welcome news indeed, all the more so because of who is
involved. I haven't been in any hurry to worry about what happens
post-mysb.com, but I've signed up on your site and am looking forward to
following your progress with ickstream. Good luck with it!


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GeeJay
2013-04-06 17:48:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by aubuti
This is very welcome news indeed, all the more so because of who is
involved. I haven't been in any hurry to worry about what happens
post-mysb.com, but I've signed up on your site and am looking forward to
following your progress with ickstream. Good luck with it!
My sentiments exactly. I'm glad you guys announced when you did, so
those of us sitting on the sidelines can continue to demonstrate
patience until you're able to introduce your product.

I'm hopeful I won't soon have to answer the question, "but how will I
replace iPeng and Erland's plugins?"


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erland
2013-04-06 08:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by vining
Will there be CLI support for guys integrating syestems with AMX or
Crestron?
Our integration API's are based on JSON data structures and I'm pretty
sure they contain all functionality which would be needed for
integration with home automation systems, the idea is that our own
controller and player software will use the same API's as we make
available to third parties who like to use the ickStream platform. I'm
personally not familiar with the AMX/Creston integration, but generally
it should be possible for a third party developer to create the
necessary glue between our API's and AMX/Creston integration API's, for
example by implementing a CLI wrapper around our API's.

On short terms our main focus is on the platform and our own API's, but
if anyone has developed integrations for AMX/Creston previously and
would be interested in experimenting with our API's as a third party
developer please let us know via PM or mail.


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toby10
2013-04-06 08:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Great news! I'd be happy to help out with beta testing of MyIck.com
(ok, bad joke) with my SB3, Boom, Touch & Radio. I stream some players
24/7 so might be a good reliability test, of sorts. What will the
annual subscription be and where can I send it now (if you need some
development cash)? I understand it's not ready yet, but I'd be happy to
help in testing and $$$, just let me know.


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chenrikson
2013-04-06 14:50:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by toby10
Great news! I'd be happy to help out with beta testing of MyIck.com
(ok, bad joke) with my SB3, Boom, Touch & Radio. I stream some players
24/7 so might be a good reliability test, of sorts. What will the
annual subscription be and where can I send it now (if you need some
development cash)? I understand it's not ready yet, but I'd be happy to
help in testing and $$$, just let me know.
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